My Lords, we return to the question of provision, helped by the intervention of the Minister to say that the wording of Clause 2(5) is to be read as if it actually said, “the debt advice function is to provide”—with the assumption that it is an option but not a plan to do this by delegation to other bodies. That reflects comments made on an earlier amendment.
I should like to use this group of amendments to probe for responses on the scale, scope and funding, particularly of the debt space, because there are concerns in this area. Amendment 11 is a way to express the ambition across the debt space, and I recommend the wording. It is not open-ended; it sets down a few markers that could be used. It confirms that the debt advice services which are to be provided either directly or through commissioning bodies are to be free at the point of use and are to meet the needs of people in financial crisis in England.
Informed estimates suggest that there are probably about 2 million people in that category in England at the moment, of whom just over 1.25 million get a reasonable level of service from the existing bodies, primarily those which are offering pure advice, which are the Citizens Advice service, the Money Advice Trust and other smaller groups, but also those providing debt management plans, such as StepChange and some of the other smaller groups. There are also those offering solutions, which we talked about on earlier amendments.
The amendment would replace the current subsection. It clears up the question of what “provision” or “provide” mean and allows us to take the question forward on a secure basis, which will be comforting to those who are likely to be affected by the change from MAS to the new body.
Amendment 13 takes forward the point already made: this cannot be a top-down exercise. The single financial guidance body must work together with the existing debt advice services, which have been operating for 20 or 30 years—in the case of Citizens Advice, for much longer—know their stuff, are doing it well and are well respected by the industry, supported by it with
cash and are able to operate largely on their own without support from central Government or any other body.
I said at Second Reading and I say again that the proportion of money brought in by the Money Advice Service is very small relative to the total expenditure on debt advice. It has largely come from historic funding made by grant to Citizens Advice when it was a body directly responsible for consumer support more generally under BIS, and now it has been transmuted into support through the levy and paid through MAS. But that is not the totality of what is available in the debt space. The wording suggested in Amendment 13 is on the basis of the consultation and makes a general statement about what it is to be used for—which, again, I think would be helpful in clarifying those who are involved in it.
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Amendment 35 would take a bold step towards adequate funding on a sustainable basis, and I hope it recommends itself to the Minister. The intention is that we would set a quantum for the funding to be allocated towards debt advice that would be based on the reasonable needs, based on the numbers that were mentioned earlier. Those would be the scale, scope and funding arrangements, and I would be interested to get the responses to them. I am not saying that there is great disquiet in the sector, but anything on that of a comforting nature that could be said from the Dispatch Box would be helpful. The minimum would obviously be the status quo ante, but any possibility that efficiency savings or other sources of funding would be made available would be welcome.
Amendment 43 is of a slightly different nature; it probes the downside. Does this arrangement bring into question what might happen should there be a different set of arrangements pertaining—if “provision” were to be read as making active provision from the centre, thereby reducing the scope for activity and therefore for fundraising and support from other sources to the bodies that are currently operating in the debt space? It is a probing amendment, in the sense that in the wording that talks about the single financial guidance body arranging for another person to carry out functions it would delete,
“(b) the debt advice function”,
saying that it cannot be so dismissed. In responding to this, could the Minister explain what is in mind here, without going into particular detail?
The questions being raised are about whether this could perhaps be a provider of services in the public sector—names like Serco come to mind. Is that the direction that we are talking about? Is it to be run as a sort of outpost of the SFGB in a manner that it can direct and control in a more effective way? How many of these bodies are envisaged? Is it going to be one of the existing bodies or will there be a sort of beauty contest between Citizens Advice, StepChange and other bodies that we have mentioned in the past, such as Citizens Against Poverty? Why is it drafted this way? The wording states:
“The single financial guidance body may arrange for another person … to carry out any of the following functions on its behalf”.
That does not seem to me to get the sense of taking the existing arrangements, moving them forward, assessing the gaps and filling them with expert commissioned services, and making sure that the citizens who the Minister said are at the centre of the work of the Bill receive the service they deserve. I beg to move.