My Lords, I was very tempted to rise during the Minister’s previous comments, but that would have undermined the next part of my address, looking at this group. I hope he does not mind if I touch on some of the other issues very briefly. In moving Amendment 482BA, I will speak also to the other amendments in my name and address some of the issues raised in the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Stevenson.
The first point we want to make about the functions of UKRI is that because there is a very important and complex series of relationships with the councils, the function of UKRI needs to be defined and the right assurances given. There are already considerably confused lines of accountability in how this is established. You have only to look at the different functions that are laid out for UKRI to perform and for councils to perform and where the determination rests on those. The obvious issue is who is responsible for hiring and firing an executive chair. In Schedule 9 this is the Secretary of State, for any reason that they see fit—for example, if the chair misses certain meetings—or if they feel that there is no appropriate mechanism for that to be effectively dealt with.
The main issue comes down to: what is the separation of functions? UKRI is meant to be a strategic brain. It is meant to facilitate the overall development of cross-disciplinary funds and activity. It is also meant to be responsible for the back-office functions across the organisation, although when you try to determine what those back-office functions are, many of them are core to the operations but are outsourced rather than having one organisation dealing with them. Even within the administration of an organisation, there is a series of issues which will impinge upon the other functions that the councils will have to undertake. When you identify the areas that are delegated to the councils, they lend themselves not just to an independent chair but to understanding that the lines of accountability are pretty clear, based on the definitions of the different roles, as specified by the Government.
However, I have gone a bit too far; that was not really my purpose. I wanted to raise that point but I have gone way beyond what I intended. I am keen to
get some sense of how the guidance on the functions that UKRI will retain will work, particularly with regard to the back-office functions—that area where the Government believe there are such considerable savings to be made. I would be grateful if the Minister could give me some sense of how that would work. I appreciate that the detailed guidance is not published yet but I would like some idea of how the Government came to the conclusion that there was such a great bonanza to be gained from merging those activities, and how that could be effectively managed.
Many of our amendments are probing in nature but they also look at some drafting issues. We have considerable concerns about inconsistencies and areas where we believe that the wording requires some degree of change. It is more than just occasions when we feel that a “may” should be a “must”, which very often is more than just a drafting issue. There are amendments which tidy up inconsistencies—for example, social sciences are mentioned in one place but missed out in another—which I hope the Minister will address and will understand are beneficial. Amendment 482BA suggests that UKRI should be able to delegate “some” of its functions, rather than “any”, as the Bill currently states, to ensure some degree of consistency. Many of the others are in the same vein.
5.45 pm
It is also important to look at the research being measured by its contribution to economic growth and quality of life. Here I am particularly pleased to have added my name to Amendment 484A in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I hope that as a mathematician he will not be too offended by what I am about to say. There is a point here about the nature and purpose of research and making sure that it is quantified by particular outcomes. I am keen to hear the Minister’s view on the case that I think should be made for serendipity in research. There are occasions when we can see research as having other than the intended outcome and times when we can look at funding blue-sky research, which does not have the most specific or enhanced research endpoint but is of merit and hard to measure in other ways.
Looking at the range of research that we have and making sure that we can look at basic, applied and strategic research, giving the capacity to UKRI to have an eye on other things is quite important. It reminds me of the story that we heard when we had discussions with some of the institutions here about one piece of research which looked almost whimsically at how herpes created latent cold sores. As a result of this research, a viral treatment to address herpes was developed. That begat gene delivery by virus, which begat gene delivery to deal with cancer, particularly melanoma. The people who were involved in that research now have a company which focuses on cancer. It is important that within the principles that we have, as well as trying to ensure that we have hard-edged research and retain our world-leading position, we think very carefully about independent researchers and—dare I say?—eccentrics, and the foundations of creativity and challenge which are inherent in the benefits of having an excellent and outstanding research base.
Finally, I would be very grateful if the Minister could take this opportunity to give us some clarification of how the Government see the role of UKRI in its function of overseeing postgraduate research students and part-time students. We have a tremendous group of institutions in this country, particularly Birkbeck, with which many noble Lords will be familiar, which is an outstanding institute that deals with part-time students. The Bill lacks clarity about the role of such institutions. I would be grateful if the Minister could make that clear. I beg to move.