My Lords, the Committee will be relieved to know that I will spend considerably less time on this group of amendments than I did on the previous one. These amendments are designed simply to ensure that any franchising arrangement is brought in only after other avenues have been explored and that it would be for the benefit of passengers in a particular area.
In the debate on the previous group of amendments, my noble friend on the Front Bench said that she did not know why big companies were against franchising. I declare a non-interest—I have no shares in any bus company, nor am I paid by any. I base my prejudices entirely on my own experiences, rightly or wrongly. But I have to say to my noble friend that what she said was not quite true, was it? It is all very well to say that a franchise operation would mean continuity. Of course it would, for the length of time laid down in the franchise, for the company chosen as the franchisee, but there would be no guarantee.
Let us take Birmingham, the area where I worked in the bus industry and where, incidentally, it has been made plain by the local authority that it is not interested in franchising because it has a good partnership arrangement. But suppose that Stagecoach won the franchise in Birmingham. From memory, it does not have any garages nearer than Coventry. Would Travel West Midlands be expected to hand over the keys to one of its garages, take its bus fleet elsewhere and bid for another franchise? The issue is not as simple as my noble friend makes out. She said in her previous speech that local authorities would not seek franchising arrangements if they were happy with the current standard of service—and that is true as far as Birmingham is concerned. But who judges the happiness?
One of the problems of local government being offered services is that it finds it very difficult to turn them down. In my 40 years in local and national politics, I have known few democratic organisations that would refuse powers offered to them. If they are offered the opportunity of franchising, I should think that many local authorities would say, “That sounds like a good idea. Let’s give it a try”. It would be understandable if they did, but to suggest that we could move towards a system of franchising comparatively painlessly and that it would be in the interests of the franchisee is a mistake.
4.30 pm
My noble friend Lord Woolmer is shaking his head. I am always very diffident about falling out with my noble friend as he and I share an office, and he is bigger than me—and a Yorkshireman to boot. But I have to say to him that in a short intervention when we debated this Bill a couple of weeks ago, he indicated that he was in favour of franchising—he is nodding, so I take that as assent. I do not know whether he reads the Times on Saturdays, but in an independent supplement, entitled Super North, there was an article headed:
“On the road to new success”.
I do not think that it was written by anybody in the bus industry. It mentions his part of the world and states:
“Today, Park and Ride services offered by First Bus with Leeds City Council and West Yorkshire Combined Authority have achieved a recommendation rating of more than 99 per cent”.
This is Korean or Chinese Communist stuff—99%. Let us find the other 1% and make them walk in future: that would be my answer to that. The article goes on to say that,
“the introduction of partnership agreements in South Yorkshire have helped deliver the right framework to attract customers”.
As is plain in the Bill, if we have franchising in the West Yorkshire area, the partnership agreement that I have just outlined, and which has just been praised by the Times, could not operate because we cannot have franchising and a partnership together. It is one thing or the other. So, at great risk to my personal safety tomorrow, I have to ask my noble friend—I will give way a moment when I get far enough away from him—what does he want: partnership or franchising, bearing in mind that the consequence of franchising would be the withdrawal of that partnership?