My Lords, I thank all those who spoke in the debate today. We heard some very powerful and very interesting speeches, and I am extremely grateful for the support around the House and, indeed, outside the House. A number of noble Lords mentioned a letter from some very prominent Members of the Commons and others in the Times today. We have
had some very instructive speeches, too. I think we may have confirmed the reputation of the Lords as a den of iniquity, especially for specialists in money-laundering and various other nefarious activities. That will no doubt mean that Hansard is read with unusual interest in future.
I want to reassure Members of the House, particularly those who enjoy a regular flutter, that despite having some Quaker antecedents, I am no puritan. Indeed, I had a cousin who was the Bishop of St Albans. I am very much of the liberal persuasion on that sort of matter. My late father-in-law owned a casino, so if that is not the sort of respectable quality to recommend me to the gambling industry, I do not know what will. This is about problem gambling, a social ill; it is not about ordinary, everyday having a flutter. It really is not. I hope that people will take that away.
One of the key issues that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the Minister was action by the industry, which has not been forthcoming. That is one of the problems in all this. I suppose my prejudice would be first in favour of voluntary action, but the fact is that that has not been forthcoming. Whether or not we think it has been effective, the Government had to regulate on the £50 supervised stake. That was not volunteered by the industry, so we have real questions about the activities of bookmakers.
The noble Lord, Lord James, was extremely interesting, and if we ever got to a Committee stage on this Bill, I am sure we would have several happy hours looking at some of the intricacies of the regulations on the software and disclosure and at issues about spins and so on and so forth. I think I had better go with the noble Lord, Lord James, to my nearest bookmakers and get further instruction. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, will probably come along as well.
Some very interesting points were made. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, compared this issue with that of legal highs, on which we have legislated. That is entirely right. This is a damaging social problem. He also talked about money laundering.
I wish I was as shrewd as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is in the bets he has placed. I do not think anybody would have approved of me if I had placed the kind of bets that he has placed, but nevertheless I bow to his knowledge of the industry. I was quite relieved that at the end he came out in support, because I know that his knowledge is considerable. As he says, there will never be enough evidence because it is very difficult to extract if the industry does not allow the access that is necessary to evaluate the situation. The precautionary principle has to apply. That is why the Gambling Commission adopts it.
A number of noble Lords talked particularly about the concentration—I do not use the expression “targeting”—in the most deprived areas. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, had it right in terms of “correlation”. I think a number of noble Lords would go as far as that. It may tip over into targeting, but we do not yet have that evidence.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, who said we have online gambling and so on, we know that FOBTs are peculiarly damaging and are peculiarly
related to problem gambling. As we get evidence that particular forms of gambling disproportionately cause problem gambling—and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, who has campaigned on online gambling—then of course we should tackle it, but that does not mean to say that the best is the enemy of the good. That is a very important point when you are legislating. I take the noble Lord’s point about casinos. I have no argument with high-stakes terminals in casinos, properly regulated. Where the environment is right, of course these machines can be legitimately used. It is in betting shops where we are particularly concerned.
The way that the right reverend Prelate talked about the real problems at the grass roots was very telling. He talked very eloquently about the human misery, harm, addiction and so on, the need to gather evidence and the challenge to the Government to take the trouble to gather the evidence. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, described betting shops turning into casinos, and that was particularly powerful.
I am grateful for the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Collins. I understand that the Opposition take a slightly different approach. Their approach is more about licensing and planning rather than a change of stakes. They, like the Government, would prefer to see that debated on a review of stakes and prizes, and I understand that, but that means there must be genuine intent to review.
Although the cricket season has not started, the Minister started with a dead bat but rather livened up and started playing a few strokes, which was quite interesting. He started coming round to the fact that, yes, there is a problem and said that the Government might think about it in the review of stakes and prizes. We do not know when the review is going to be, but it is always a possibility that we will talk about it. That may be about an eighth of a loaf, but at least we are moving a little further than we were before this debate started.
The Minister raised all sorts of matters including improvements in planning and self-exclusion. I do not think self-exclusion has been proven to be effective. The issue is about the stake. We are going to be keeping up the pressure on that. We need to listen to those who have been intimately connected to the industry.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned Mr Fintan Drury, a former chairman and non-executive of Paddy Power, and I think that we really do need to listen to those who have been intimately connected with the industry. Even he is saying,
“Gambling may be less addictive than cigarettes but its potential to trap those with a predilection to spend money irresponsibly is beyond doubt. I have a few friends who go to Gamblers Anonymous meetings and whose testimony is not that different to those who attend AA meetings. These people would not want gambling to be banned outright — that would simply drive it underground. What they would argue, though, is that easy access to addictive behaviour contributes to the problem and that society has a responsibility to protect its most vulnerable from making bad choices”.
I would have thought that any political party would subscribe to that philosophy. I certainly do, and I very much hope that we will listen to those informed voices as we proceed.
I hope that the House will give the Bill a second Reading and that we can move on to the next stage.