UK Parliament / Open data

Housing and Planning Bill

Lords committee stage third day. Clause 2 agreed to as amended. Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to. Part 2 of 2.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

769 cc990-1058 

Session

2015-16

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
Housing and Planning Bill 2015-16. Brought from the Commons
Wednesday, 13 January 2016
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twentieth report.
Wednesday, 3 February 2016
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Housing and Planning Bill
Thursday, 3 March 2016
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beecham | 769 c990 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

38: Clause 2, page 1, line 12, leave out from “a” to end and in...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc990-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 39, 39A and 40 in this group.

“There is no speci...


Show all contributions (157)
Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c991 (Link to this contribution)

Once again I express the need for us to see, at a very early stage today, this document that sets...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc991-2 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot answer that question, of course. I am not sure the Minister will be able to either, but ...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 769 c992 (Link to this contribution)

I have to inform your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 39 o...

Lord Best | 769 cc992-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is time for the Cross Benches to join in. Amendment 41A is in the names of the noble...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c993 (Link to this contribution)

That is an area that confuses me. When we talk about repayment, who is actually being repaid? I c...

Lord Best | 769 c993 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill and my amendment leave open whether repayment would be to the local authority where the ...

Lord Kerslake | 769 cc996-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 41A, spoken to so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I declare my i...

Lord Young of Cookham | 769 c998 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I speak briefly on Amendment 39A, I want to touch on the point that both the nob...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c998 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Young, said that in return for paying a slightly lower rent, they would effe...

Lord Young of Cookham | 769 c1000 (Link to this contribution)

I am reading from the briefing from Rentplus:

“The affordable rent to buy tenure addresses ...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 769 cc1000-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 46. I support all the amendments in this group and the commen...

Lord Horam | 769 cc1001-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will comment very briefly on the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, who m...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1002 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the opportunity to come back on this point. The noble Lord is entirely right to...

Lord Horam | 769 cc1002-3 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely agree with that. My way would be to recognise that the sort of lift in the cap on borr...

Lord Shipley | 769 cc1003-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am a signatory to Amendment 46. I want to refer to the report from Generation Rent, w...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1004 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to intervene but I cannot understand how this would work. I am not trying to be critic...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1004 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the noble Lord. I am as concerned as he is about these matters. Of course, I had ass...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc1004-5 (Link to this contribution)

In terms of the perpetual restriction, does the noble Lord think that it would be possible to dis...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1005 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is a very helpful intervention and it could well be one way in which we could proc...

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 c1005 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 41. I was going to list the range of various abuses that I f...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1005 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I just do not want to happen today what happened...

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 cc1005-6 (Link to this contribution)

I do apologise; I meant Amendment 41A.

The point that everyone has made, including the nobl...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1006 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, might I ask the Minister a question following the powerful speeches from the Cross Benc...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1007 (Link to this contribution)

I shall very briefly intervene on this occasion just to say that I only wish that Amendment 89L i...

Earl of Lytton | 769 cc1007-1010 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have sat on my hands for a considerable while since we started in Committee this morn...

Lord True | 769 c1008 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise: council duties earlier this week led me to miss the extremely interesting ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1008 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I accept the point about the manifesto commitment—we came in in 1997 in the same way. B...

Lord True | 769 cc1008-1011 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I respect the noble Baroness. We have heard from her many times today and if she would ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 cc1011-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, while listening to this debate I have been trying to get my mind around the mechanics o...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 769 c1012 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I really like Amendment 41A but I believe the money should go to the local authority in...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1012 (Link to this contribution)

I accept entirely that the recovery could be by the local authority rather than the Government.

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1012-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 38 and 39, and t...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1013 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, challenged the Government’s figures on this question of affordabil...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1013 (Link to this contribution)

I can, my Lords. We can all argue about statistics and, given that I have not seen the report, it...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1013 (Link to this contribution)

In her earlier remarks, the Minister said that authorities could negotiate a higher discount on t...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1013 (Link to this contribution)

Because the whole point of the starter home is that it will be available at a discounted level to...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

That is very helpful, thank you. We used to hear from the Benches opposite about how local author...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that anything changes there. Nobody would promote any louder than I the view that ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

I will try for next week and see what is in the art of the possible.

We have examined the a...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

That is the figure being challenged and we will return to it later but in the absence of seeing t...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

Can I remind the Minister of my request to see a comparison of newly-built first-time purchases a...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1014 (Link to this contribution)

I take it that the letters will be circulated to all Members taking part in the debate?

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1014-5 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely, and they will be placed in the Library. I have the implied first-time price of new bu...

Lord Best | 769 c1015 (Link to this contribution)

I am not saying that the current 20% Help to Buy support has not been helpful in the marketplace....

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1015 (Link to this contribution)

I thought that the noble Lord had said discounts, so I apologise if I misheard him. I think I nee...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1015 (Link to this contribution)

In that case, why does the Minister think she needs a 20% discount on top of a 40% equity loan—wh...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1015-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think I have been over the arguments many times. As I say, this is a new product intr...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1016 (Link to this contribution)

Would not such people still get the benefit of house price inflation, irrespective of the discoun...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1016 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, they would. But the principle behind the Government’s initiative is that within a few y...

Baroness Blackstone | 769 cc1016-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am puzzled by what the Minister is saying. There are hundreds of thousands of young p...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1017 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness asks who will benefit. Young people will benefit, and history shows ...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1017 (Link to this contribution)

There is a critical point here, which has perhaps been missed. When a couple or an individual see...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1017 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think we are going to have to disagree on this. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

So people in this particular group who might be subject to deflation are again picked out to be t...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is all relative. When house prices come down, the next house up on the ladder will...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

We all want people who work hard to move up the housing ladder, but the problem here is that this...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister explain something? I think most of us would sympathise with trying to find the b...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, housing is an issue for government and there is a huge demand on housing in this countr...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

I asked a Question this week about people on the living wage for whom homes are out of reach—peop...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

I did not disagree with the noble Lord. I pointed out the various things that were available, suc...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1018 (Link to this contribution)

There is Section 106, if it is viable for the scheme. There is £20 billion going into the housing...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1019 (Link to this contribution)

For all the reasons I have outlined, because of the gap in the market. However, if people find it...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1019 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, could the Minister please explain who would be responsible for assessing market value?<...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1019-1020 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I said this morning, we would expect an independent valuation to take place. That wo...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

I ask the Minister to imagine a sale where a house is being sold on the second occasion. After th...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

For “fixtures and fittings”.

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes an extremely valid point and I will ask about what the mechanism would be th...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend indeed makes a valid point. If people went on to do that, it would be fraudulent ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree. We would not want to introduce a system that was fraught with potential fraud....

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1020 (Link to this contribution)

But the easy way around that is that you pay £20,000 or £25,000 for the white goods and the carpe...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1020-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I turn to Amendment 39A, which would enable Rent to Buy products to be considered as st...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1021 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, I understand that Shelter will publish its data very shortly. I wa...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1021 (Link to this contribution)

I can say to the noble Lord that we will certainly request that—he has been teasing us all aftern...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc1021-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I express the thanks of the House to the noble Baroness. She has had a long, difficult ...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1022 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

41: Clause 2, page 1, line 13, after “cap,” insert...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1023 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when I first spoke today I should have drawn the House’s attention to my declared inter...

Baroness Doocey | 769 cc1023-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 42 in my name, which would exempt councils that wish to rege...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1025 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I add my support to what I think is an excellent amendment from the noble Baroness, Lad...

Lord Horam | 769 c1025 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I add my voice to the support for Amendment 42 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady ...

Lord True | 769 c1026 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I also agree with the underlying force of the amendments. They do not apply only to lar...

Lord Deben | 769 cc1026-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest of chairing a company which tries to help people to d...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1027-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Beecham and Lord Kerslake, and the noble Ba...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1028 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for intervening again, but there is a critical point to be made here. When you consid...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1028 (Link to this contribution)

I take the noble Lord’s point that the requirement to deliver starter homes might affect the viab...

Lord Deben | 769 c1028 (Link to this contribution)

I just hope that my noble friend will remember that it is not just the green belt that I wish to ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1028 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I understand my noble friend’s point. Under our proposals in the NPPF national planning poli...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1029 (Link to this contribution)

On that point, the idea for this policy was originally to build on brownfield sites and get them ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1029 (Link to this contribution)

I am in total agreement with the noble Lord and with my noble friend. One thing we are testing is...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1030 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate—the noble Baroness, Lady D...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1030 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

42A: Clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave out “has ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1030 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

44A: Clause 2, page 2, line 16, after “regulat...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1030 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

45A: Clause 2, page 2, line 21, at end insert—...

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 c1031 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cameron of Dillington

50A: Clause 4, page 3, line 16, at end insert—

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 cc1031-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the two amendments in the group concern exception sites and, for the purposes of clarit...

Lord Young of Cookham | 769 cc1033-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it will come as no surprise to my noble friend when I indicate that I have some support...

Lord Deben | 769 cc1034-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as another of those involved in getting this policy in the first place, I remember the ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 cc1035-6 (Link to this contribution)

I want to intervene very briefly. In the old days—certainly when the noble Lord, Lord Deben, was ...

Lord Deben | 769 c1036 (Link to this contribution)

They certainly could; the noble Lord is absolutely right. But they would have to exist in a way w...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1036 (Link to this contribution)

If I remember rightly, under Section 52 agreements, that was precisely the case: the permission a...

Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 769 c1036 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I remind the Committee of my interests as chair of Housing & Care 21. The noble Lord, L...

Duke of Somerset | 769 cc1036-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support both these amendments and declare my interest as a rural landowner. Although ...

Duke of Somerset | 769 c1037 (Link to this contribution)

I was under the impression that we had had two contrary replies. On one occasion the Minister sai...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1037 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think the noble Duke is referring to when I talked about second-home owners purchasin...

Duke of Somerset | 769 cc1037-8 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister. Surely it must be sensible to protect the 20% discount in perpetuity, as th...

Lord Best | 769 cc1038-1040 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is on Amendments 50A and 50C and I rise to support my noble friend, Lord Camero...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1040 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am fully in support of both these amendments. I agree with virtually all the contribu...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 cc1040-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I also support these amendments. As a child and as a teenager, I was brought up in a vi...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 cc1041-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I wonder if I might intervene again. In some ways I find myself at odds with much of th...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1042-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Cameron, Lord Kennedy, and Lord Stoneham, and ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1043 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister have any idea yet whether she is talking about sites accommodating 12 or 20 hom...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1043 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know but, as I said either earlier today or on Tuesday—the days are rolling together—I e...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1043 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way—she has been very kind in that respect. Part of the pro...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1043-4 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may make another point about covenants, which many philanthropic landlords attach to th...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

Forgive me for interrupting, but can the Minister tell us when we will know what the minimum size...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would strongly imagine that we are talking about numbers of units.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister have any idea what sort of numbers she is talking about?

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

I do not. What I have said is that I strongly expect—although I do not know—that it would be very...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister said that people living in rural communities should have the right to benefit from t...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

I do not agree with much of what the noble Lord said. Obviously, the mix of tenures is essential,...

Lord Greaves | 769 c1044 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord does that, and I have no doubt that he will, the Minister made some interes...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1045 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think it will be done through amended neighbourhood plans. It also may be done throug...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1045 (Link to this contribution)

Under the starter home arrangements, I envisage in a village half a dozen or a dozen terraced hou...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1045 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, six terraced houses would be quite a small site size. It is important for noble Lords t...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1045 (Link to this contribution)

Just one final point. I was pleased to hear that we may be agreeing after all; I am not sure that...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1045 (Link to this contribution)

I think I addressed quite a lot of my remarks to the local test.

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 cc1045-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their participation in the debate and for their nearly univ...

Lord Best | 769 c1046 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may intervene and say that before we go home in a really gloomy state of mind, I did ca...

Lord Cameron of Dillington | 769 c1046 (Link to this contribution)

As I say, I have no doubt that we will be able to discuss this between now and Report. In the mea...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1047 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

50F: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clau...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1047 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am conscious of the time. The amendment, tabled in my name and that of my noble frien...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 cc1047-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend in his Amendment 50F. If we do not do what my noble friend sa...

Baroness Grender | 769 cc1048-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 53, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Shipley, calls for an annual ...

Earl of Lytton | 769 cc1049-1050 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I generally support both amendments, up to a point. On Amendment 50F, so ably moved by ...

Lord Greaves | 769 cc1050-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support a great deal of what the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has said about the importan...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 769 c1051 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, regardless of whether the Labour Front Bench brings this amendment back on Report, it s...

Lord Deben | 769 cc1051-2 (Link to this contribution)

I support the noble Baroness opposite. This is not a sensible amendment and I am sure that my nob...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1052-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I thank all of your Lordships who have taken pa...

Baroness Grender | 769 c1053 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Greaves was actually talking about the main Labour amendment and not Amendme...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1053 (Link to this contribution)

I do apologise—I was trying to give him credit because I disagree with him on quite a lot of thin...

Lord Greaves | 769 c1053 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the Minister was trying to stir up trouble on these Benches—I would not dare to cont...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1053-5 (Link to this contribution)

I was not trying to stir up trouble—honestly, my Lords, it is getting a bit late for that. Amendm...

Lord Greaves | 769 c1055 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord speaks, I have a question for the Minister. I am trying to work out how the...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1055 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think that they will be for future plans, because they will include starter homes, bu...

Lord Greaves | 769 c1055 (Link to this contribution)

In that case, why is it necessary to do this? Why cannot any defect in relation to starter homes ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1055 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is a very good question. Can I come back to the noble Lord on that?

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1055 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank everyone who has spoken in the debate this evening. My amendment was only a pro...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 cc1055-6 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

53E: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clau...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1056 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will be as brief as I can. This amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend L...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1056-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord has just left me with a very horrible thought, but I thank him and the n...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1058 (Link to this contribution)

I am very happy to withdraw my amendment, but want to place on the record our thanks from these B...

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