My Lords, as I said in the debate on Clause 12, I have my concerns about Clause 13. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and, once again, to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for making part of the case that I want to make, which is that there are all sorts of reasons why it would be mad to use this power.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the point very well. We have made it clear in Clause 12 that what we really believe in is transparency. We are not frightened of transparency, and we are not frightened of standing up for what we believe is right in this respect and what we believe is good for union relations. In that circumstance, it would be a defeat for transparency if we found that the powers in Clause 13 needed to be used. But then I think: could I conceive that it could never happen? Those of us who have been around in some of these industrial and other areas know that a relationship that has been established over a long time—perhaps between a chairman and a local trade union—can incite very real criticism when it is in the public domain but people feel incapable of moving on it. It may be in the interests of that organisation, whichever of the publicly funded bodies it may be, for someone to resolve the issue.
What nobody has mentioned is that it is not—if I may say so, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake—about whether Whitehall knows best. It will be, in the end, about whether Parliament knows best. The most important part of this clause is that for a Minister to try to impose this power, he must carry an affirmative order in each House. Just consider yourself as a Minister, deciding whether you will act in some area that will excite all the criticisms so well made from the opposition Benches, and consider why it would be so unwise.
As anyone who has had to deal with the business managers will know—and I am standing not very far away from the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms—the
business managers say, “We have more than enough business anyway in both Houses and why on earth do you want to bring this order?”. It is not just the Opposition who oppose half the business that the Government or individual Ministers want to bring forward; it is very often the business managers on your own side who say, “We are far too busy. This can’t be the most important thing. Can’t it be sorted out in any other way?”.
I agree with everything that has been said. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about local government. If you get transparency on this issue in local government, which already exists, as we know, it is not going to be applied against an individual local authority. I cannot see that ever being applied. But there could be another public body that becomes a public embarrassment, where it is known publicly, as we do know, that in certain areas significant public money can be wasted, and then people will turn to the Government and to Parliament and say, “What are you going to do about this? Are you powerless to prevent this situation continuing?”.
In those circumstances, I can see a case for Clause 13 but, if I may say so—not terribly helpfully to my noble friend the Minister—I find it completely unreadable. That was always one of the problems with the parliamentary draftsmen. I understand what the point is but somebody ought to have a jolly good look and see whether we can deal with one or two of the points that have been picked out by the Opposition, absolutely rightly—the odd little details where some draftsman has got carried away with what the individual details are. That needs to be looked at. That is a singularly unhelpful comment and will put Report stage back, I expect. There is a case for Clause 13 but, as I say, the chances of it actually being used, for all the reasons that have been given, are pretty minuscule. However, I would not rule out the need for it and on that basis I would support it.