My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very full and careful reply. I knew that it was too much to hope that his generous spending spree would continue into this group of amendments, so we will deal with the case that has been made on its merits. I also thank all those noble Lords who have spoken. The amendment has attracted support from right across the House: I made it 10 speeches in all and 9:1 in favour of the amendment.
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I want to deal with the points that have been made as quickly as I can—I cannot deal with them all—under four headings. The first two concern the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, which was a thoughtful and serious contribution and deserves to be taken seriously. I agree that there are lots of things that should be done to help disabled people into work; the only point is that cutting benefits is not one of them.
The Minister talked about the impact of benefit support on people in the WRAG. Obviously, it varies. People in the WRAG are not a homogeneous group; they are on a journey towards work. People are put in the WRAG because they are assessed as possibly being able to work at some point. Obviously, some will, but many remain on the journey. We should not hobble them in making that journey by cutting their benefit, with all the deleterious consequences for seeking work that I mentioned in moving the amendment.
My noble friend Lord Berkeley, who is sitting behind me, extended the point about the heterogeneous nature of those in the WRAG. The noble Lord pointed out that some, particularly those with progressive conditions, will become less able to make the journey into work. We need to be very mindful of the consequences of cutting benefit for them.
I can make my second point more briefly. It concerns the OECD report of 2005, to which the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred and on which the Minister relied. I have to repeat the point I made in moving the amendment: it is not to the point at all. It is not about disability. It does not deal with disability employment or unemployment; it is concerned with the general employment and unemployment of non-disabled people, so it is not to the case.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, referred to the fact that it was counterproductive even in the Government’s terms to cut the ESA premium. I remind noble Lords of the point that emerged from our review: the finding that Clauses 13 and 14, far from helping, will actually undermine the Government’s ability to get disabled people into work and halve the disability employment gap. No one could be more excited than I am about the possibility of getting people into employment and halving the employment gap, but it is very disappointing to see the Government going in precisely the opposite direction to what is needed to fulfil their objective.
Finally, it defies logic and common sense, surely, to say that you will help disabled people to get into work by cutting the money that they have to engage in
work-related activities. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans got it in one when he said that the problem is one not of incentivising people, but of mobilising the job opportunities and giving disabled people the support they need to get into them.
With those points, I am left feeling that the case for the amendment is even stronger than when I moved it, and that it has not really been answered by the Minister, or anyone who has spoken against it. That being the case, I beg to test the opinion of the House.