My Lords, Warner Brothers established a remarkable reputation in the field of entertainment. It would be churlish if the noble Lord, who perhaps no longer counts himself as a brother to some of us on these Benches, was not to be congratulated on effecting a substantive change to the Bill that improves it. Members on all sides will want to join the Minister in paying tribute to the noble Lord’s efforts.
As to the rather peculiar route taken by the Government in this matter, I think it became apparent to those of us who attended the meeting chaired by the noble Baroness at which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was present, together with the silent presence of the Minister for devolution and the northern powerhouse, that at that point there really had been virtually no contact between the relevant departments, notably DCLG and the Department of Health. Clearly matters have improved since then and the House will be grateful to the two Ministers, who I suspect have got together much more effectively than had been possible at that stage. So far as the Opposition are concerned, we welcome the changes that have been made.
But questions still remain, some of which I referred to in my earlier speech in relation to the first group, about the position particularly in what are now county areas, where it is conceivable that certain districts may affiliate to combined authorities in an adjacent area. If, for example, there was a situation where there was a district council in Cheshire rather than a unitary, which joined the combined authority—it may or may not; I have no idea what is happening in the north-west, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Smith will enlighten us—and it affiliated for economic purposes with the combined authority and health was then taken over by that combined authority, what would happen to the social care part of the overall concept of health and social care? I do not think that that question has been resolved. It certainly has not been resolved in my mind, but that may be a defect on my part. It would be good to have some enlightenment about that situation.
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A move like that would not only have an impact on the authority that is moving into a combined authority but, potentially, have a significant impact on the residual
services available within the county that it will have left for these purposes. It may not have started out that way but, in time, what may have begun as an economic decision may be changed by the devolution of health in the way that has been described. It would be helpful if the Minister would indicate in particular the Government’s view about the potential for difficulties involving the social care aspect of what needs to be a closer working partnership between these two services, which I think all parties recognise is highly desirable.
I also think that we all await with great interest the outcome in Greater Manchester. It is an attractive concept but it may have different implications for different areas and may not be quite as straightforward as we would like to think. My fear is that county districts joining, for some purposes but not for others, a combined authority may not really have been given any serious consideration. If it has not thus far—bearing in mind the Manchester experience as it evolves—it should certainly be the subject of further consideration and discussion, not only with health bodies but also with local government.