My Lords, I listened to most of the debate this evening and have heard the arguments on most of the amendments. Without any discourtesy to those who have proposed these amendments, it seems to me that the case for these are less compelling than the case for some of the amendments that were discussed earlier. There is one fundamental reason for this: what this clause does is basically to convert what is at the moment a grant into a loan. Of itself, it does not affect the quantum of support from taxpayer to recipient: it simply converts the terms. Therefore, to my mind, this is a much less painful way of reducing public expenditure than some of the other measures of the Bill that directly affect the quantum of support from taxpayer to beneficiary. Perhaps it is for that reason that the Opposition’s reasoned amendment to the Bill in the other place said:
“That this House, whilst affirming its belief that … a benefits cap and loans for mortgage interest support are necessary changes to the welfare system”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/07/15; col. 1264.]
specifically excluding this bit of the Bill from their general reservations. Any measure that reduces the quantum of saving from this particular clause just puts more pressure on some of the other measures in the Bill which directly affect the support that a beneficiary might get.
Turning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in a sense she gave the case away by conceding that 39 weeks was the period for which people had to wait for roughly 10 years under the last Labour Government. If 39 weeks was appropriate when there was not the pressure that we have on public expenditure today, then it is certainly appropriate when we are trying to make necessary savings.
9.30 pm
On Amendment 104, the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, had a good point. Can the Minister clarify what would happen in the case where the person had an outstanding deferred payment under this clause but then went into care and incurred a debt to the local authority? The Government would have registered their interest, as it were, before the local authority, so when the property was disposed of would they have precedence over the local authority? I hope he can clarify that.
Finally, I understand the reason for seeking to exempt those in receipt of pension credit but if one thinks it through one sees that the beneficiaries will be those who benefit from the estate of the pensioner when he or she dies. The pensioner will not be directly affected. If one must make difficult decisions and decisions that are fair to the taxpayer, it seems that in this particular case the interests of the taxpayer should take precedence over those beneficiaries of the estate of the pensioner when he or she dies.