My Lords, this has been a very good debate which, with one exception, has focused narrowly on the questions being posed in the amendments that we are considering. Of course, we have still to hear from the Minister on his amendments and I am sure that a lot is riding on them. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, was very kind to refer to our shared interest in squash. I am a little sad that we did not encounter one another on the squash court, because, given his positioning of putting his head well above the parapet and his heart very much in his game, I think that he would have been easy prey, certainly to be beaten by fair means. But if I was struggling, I think that would have been able to lop his head off
quite easily. In what was effectively a Second Reading speech, it was not at all clear which parts of the amendments the noble Lord was supporting or not supporting. I think that we missed that, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, put it very nicely when he explained what he felt about that.
Other than that, we have focused hard on the issues relating to students. The quotation given to us by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, should be very much in our thinking as we look at these issues. There is no doubt that we are talking here about perceptions. We are talking about whether, in aggregate, the work that the Government are doing through the Bill complements, supports or destroys the currently very effective system of higher education that we have in this country in relation to overseas entrants to and users of it—although the context is not that good given the row that there has been in the past couple of weeks about what is happening to the system of higher education as a whole, which I suspect has a long way to go.
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The amendment deals with a particular exemption to charges under Part 3 and suggests that, effectively, there should be a complete carve-out for students. We are on record as saying that we do not agree with that approach and we will not be supporting the noble Lord should he take the amendment to a Division. That is not because we are against what is being said, but we think that there are two reasons why it does not work in practice. First, we accept the general proposition that those who participate in and use the NHS should contribute to it. Although we have concerns about the system proposed in the Bill, we are prepared to wait for further discussion and debate on the regulations, following the correspondence that we have received from the Minister. Secondly, we believe that there are wider issues relating to accommodation and the role of landlords in checking it which take the debate beyond narrow consideration simply for students. That is not to say that we do not agree with the amendments proposed by the Minister; there are still questions about them, but we are pleased that he has moved in that direction and we will support them.
However, I should like to pick out some issues that have been raised during the debate, in the hope that the Minister will respond. I picked up on three points that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made and will add another two. The question of whether the amendments will apply to all students is very important. First, the way in which undergraduates and postgraduates operate within the higher education system is different. Postgraduates often have dependents with them, and we need a system that will work for all concerned. I hope that the Minister can say a few words about how he sees that developing, because it is not entirely clear. The suggestion that we should be looking at students and not the type of accommodation is worth thinking about. It will be difficult to concentrate entirely on the types of accommodation available, because they are not exactly exhaustive and will not necessarily be the same in future. It might be better to focus on the individual, not the way in which they live.
The second point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was the question of what exactly would be required to be seen by those doing the checking: will a valid visa and a comprehensive statement that someone had been admitted to a qualifying higher education institution be sufficient? Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that.
Thirdly, we talked about the question of nomination and what that meant. I agree with those who said that that is a difficult word to get hold of. One can see where the Minister is coming from on this, but, again, I do not know that it does the trick, so it would be helpful if he would say a bit more about that. If he has any doubts, the opportunity to bring something back at Third Reading might be a way forward. It is important that the distinction made by the noble Lord is picked up. We are talking about a system within which the focus is on whether a person has a right to reside in the United Kingdom by virtue of having been accepted at an institution and obtaining the necessary visa. We are not talking about the subsequent arrangements under which a university or higher education institution sets up a contract for accommodation for that person. That way lies madness. It will not work. We had better try to get that right.
My two further points were also picked up by my noble friend Lady Warwick. There is a problem about pre-booking of arrangements and the extent to which those might fall under any checking or testing. It is probably difficult to get that right, but we need certainty that arrangements to be made for people who will not get visas until very close to the point at which they transition to this country work in practice. That point is important to those who have been lobbying about this.
As I have mentioned earlier, my final point raises the question: what exactly are we trying to get at here? If it is true that about 25% of students arriving here who are not from the EEA have valid visas, have been accepted by institutions and live in accommodation that will not be covered by the government amendment, are we really back in the territory in which we started and sending up a “Not welcome here” signal? If that is the case—and I hope it is not—can we do something about that? Maybe there is a way in which we should focus further on the institution and its arrangements with the student, and not so much on the accommodation of the landlord. We have amendments later on today that will look in more detail at the arrangements for private sector landlords who may have students of this category on their books. Maybe we can find a way—perhaps through a pilot; although the noble Lord does not seem to like that word—of testing to destruction whether we have a system that we can work.