My Lords, it has been a very good debate, and I am grateful to the noble Earl and other noble Lords for taking part. It is the role of noble Lords always to ask the Government for draft regulations but, alas, I fear that we may not see them. If we cannot, perhaps we could at least get a sense of instructions that might be given on policy direction.
First, let me say that the Government’s reflection on the Joint Committee’s recommendation with regard to clinical expertise, and the change that has been made, is welcome. I listened with care to the noble Earl when he said that the needs of Health Education England and the education and training of staff may change over time, which is why that is best left to regulation. That makes sense, but I cannot believe that there will ever be a time when research and nurse representation will not be important. I ask the noble Earl to give that further consideration.
I will just reflect on the comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, that this has been a consistent theme of restructurings over the years. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and I have lived through many restructurings and they always start with the premise that there will not be a nurse on the board. Then, after argument and sometimes experience, it is discovered that you need to have a nurse. I would have thought that the Francis report, at its heart, focused a
lot on nursing experience and leadership. I ask the noble Earl to give this further consideration. It would be a very visible sign that the Government are listening to this point and that they actually set out in primary legislation that a registered nurse should be appointed.
I am glad that the noble Earl picked up the point about non-registered staff and managerial staff. It is not just in the health service. In the further education sector there is a similar problem, with only a limited number of people applying to be college principals. We need to think very hard about what we can do to give greater support and encouragement to bright young people coming through so that they aspire to take on these top jobs. No one should underestimate the pressures that those leaders are under, but we really want good people. I endorse the noble Earl’s reference to clinicians. We need to encourage more clinicians to take on leadership roles.
I was very interested in the contrast between the desire of the noble Earl not to give autonomy to the board to appoint its own chief executive, but to give it autonomy when it came to the salaries of its staff. I ask for some consistency here. If the Secretary of State appoints the chair and the non-executives—which is absolutely right—he or she should then have confidence in their judgment to allow the board to appoint a chief executive.
Finally, on the intervention of the noble Baroness on integration, it might help our future debate if the noble Earl could confirm that Clause 88, on matters to which HEE must have regard and in which subsection (1)(h) refers to,
“the desirability of promoting the integration of health provision with health-related provision and care and support provision”,
answers the point that the noble Baroness raised—that in effect HEE does have to have an understanding of the needs of those providing social care because of the contribution that they can make to integrated services.