Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

The Minister is so generous; his days in Ballycastle served him well. He says that he wishes to i...

I expect that we will turn to amendment 115 in greater detail throughout the afternoon and into t...

rose—

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would give me a second. It will absolutely be the right of this House ...

I give way to the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) is right to...

I listen very carefully to what my hon. Friend the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committe...

I am almost tempted to let you decide who should intervene, Dame Rosie, but I will let my hon. Fr...

I am very grateful. Let us be absolutely clear: nobody is doubting the sincerity on this issue of...

I hear clearly what my hon. Friend says. We will need to find a way to bring greater clarity to t...

I have letters in front of me to rape victims declaring that they are victims of troubles-related...

I entirely understand my right hon. Friend’s point. This hinges on the definition of “troubles-re...

Perhaps it would be helpful for me to put a case to the Minister. Let us say, for example, that s...

I am absolutely happy to give that explicit undertaking to my right hon. Friend and the Committee...

I respect the tone that my right hon. Friend is taking on this very sensitive subject, but we kno...

We think that the position is clear in the Bill. However, it is clear that the Committee does not...

I am grateful to the Minister for giving that commitment, but I think he understands very well wh...

The hon. Gentleman makes a very powerful point. I think that I am acknowledging the strength of f...

As one of several Members across the House who served during the troubles and saw the losses incu...

First, may I thank my hon. Friend at this Dispatch Box for his service in the forces? We acknowle...

The Minister’s sincerity in trying to deal with the issue shines through. I did his job in 2014; ...

My right hon. Friend knows the subject incredibly well; he did the job with distinction and was w...

On amendment 115, may I refer to a role that I had in a previous life? My understanding is that t...

I have great admiration for my right hon. Friend, as he knows. He and I maintained a very warm di...

May I echo what my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) said? No o...

I have listened carefully to what the Chairman of the Select Committee has said. Ultimately, it w...

On a point of order, Dame Rosie. For the sake of clarity and for the benefit of all Members, may ...

Report stage is currently scheduled for Monday. As I understand it, amendments would need to be t...

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie. In principle there can be a Report stage, but in prac...

Obviously it is difficult to predict what would happen on the day. In such circumstances, Members...

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie.

I am slightly anxious that we will use the whole debate for points of order, but I will take this...

It was my understanding, Dame Rosie, that the usual channels could alter the programme motion, bu...

This is something that I suggest would lead to ping-pong, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, but, ag...

I am conscious that I have taken a significant number of interventions so far this afternoon, so,...

rose—

However, I did promise to give way to the hon. Gentleman. Go on.

I thank the Minister. I did indicate my wish to intervene earlier.

The Minister will be awa...

The hon. Gentleman probably anticipated my reply before he asked the question. It would be inappr...

The reason for my question is quite simple. I understand that the Bill debars that from happening...

What we are talking about today is what is in the Bill, what the Bill will establish and how the ...

Will the Minister give way?

No. I heard the hon. Gentleman clearly when he was sitting down; there is no need for him to stan...

May I just check something? I am hoping that the Minister will be able to provide a positive conf...

I refer my hon. Friend to what I have said about the gratitude that this Government and the whole...

My constituent has already had a dialogue and was told that the matter was closed, but the matter...

If my hon. Friend’s constituent has previously engaged in those mechanisms and there is no live i...

I am pleased to hear that my right hon. Friend is putting victims at the centre of this process. ...

The central ambition of this legislation is to provide that closure.

Will the Minister give way?

Bear with me.

We have to be humble in acknowledging that the current mechanisms are not del...

I have not yet given way to an Alliance Member, but I will do so now.

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way.

On people coming before the panel and not act...

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and the Bill covers how the body will begin work and...

Will the Minister give way?

I need to make a little more progress, but I will come back to my hon. Friend towards the end. Th...

On this test of the veracity of the witness, will the material that the Minister referred to in h...

The hon. Gentleman asks about an important point. Central within this legislation will be the pas...

I just ask the Minister to guarantee that. Many people are very concerned that this Bill may pass...

The credibility of the body will be determined by its effectiveness and how quickly it can gain t...

Dame Eleanor, I am conscious that I have been on my feet for more than an hour now and that Membe...

Clause 18 clearly states:

“The ICRIR must grant a person…immunity from prosecution if condi...

My hon. Friend makes an important point, which others have raised in the past. The position in th...

I commend my right hon. Friend and the Secretary of State for doing such a difficult job and doin...

We are very clear on this, and the Bill sets out the timetable. Where an inquest is ongoing and h...

Before the Minister closes on immunity, does he agree that language is crucial here? The word “am...

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, and it has been said repeatedly by myself, the Secretary o...

I do not wish to detain my right hon. Friend, but I was listening to what he said about inquests,...

The intention—

Order. The Minister has to answer one question before he can take the next one, even if it is on ...

The intention behind the Bill is to have this body as the one to which people will go to recover ...

I have two points to make before the Minister concludes. This issue of “review” and “investigatio...

On the very specific question as to why the terminology is “review” rather than “investigate”, th...

rose—

rose—

I think I have been reasonably generous in giving way, and I have been on my feet for well over a...

I am very grateful to you, Dame Eleanor, for calling me to speak. I listened carefully to the Min...

The hon. Gentleman mentions that victims are at the centre of this, and that is right, but I hear...

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, as always. We recognise that service personn...

Victims also include service personnel who have been repeatedly pulled up before the courts. We h...

These were issues that dominated the debate on Second Reading. I know there are people here with ...

I agree with the sentiments that the hon. Gentleman expresses about our servicepeople and the inj...

At the risk of rehearsing the Second Reading debate again, the concern we have always had is that...

We have heard already that many of these events were a long time ago. Well, in August 1971 Kathle...

Yes, of course. I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting that on record and bringing ...

It is absolutely right and proper that the shadow Secretary of State refers to the victims who wi...

The hon. Gentleman speaks from the heart and puts on record the experience of many, many families...

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, though, that where we are is nowhere close to perfection? We ...

We have not made the degree of progress that we should have done, but the progress that has been ...

I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for taking that line in response to the hon. Membe...

I am grateful for the tone and the content of what the hon. Member says.

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will give way once more, and then I have to make progress, because there are meaningful issues ...

To be absolutely clear, in relation to the intervention from the hon. Member for Belfast East (Ga...

I urge the hon. Member not to take the advice of just one or two members of Parliament from North...

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. All the parties in Northern Ireland oppose the Bill, and ...

I have spoken to Jonathan Powell, who is, of course, always worth listening to on such issues. Th...

A lot has been said today about closure. The Government have said that they have engaged and list...

I have met victims via their representative bodies and organisations, and directly, on every visi...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will give way, and then I must make some considerable progress.

What probably keeps all of us who have lost loved ones going has been that flicker of life, or fl...

One more time, the hon. Gentleman brings humanity and lived experience to the debate in an extrem...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this issue is also important for attracting the right people t...

The former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland makes an incredibly important point, which has...

I absolutely concur with the shadow Secretary of State. He points to the weakness that, while Min...

I am always grateful for the hon. Member’s considered and sincere interventions. He will sense my...

Will the hon. Member give way?

I will ventilate my argument and then of course give way so that the right hon. Member does not e...

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with great care—this is what Committee is all about. May I t...

I certainly hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s gentle plea. I know what a gentle plea is...

There may be a third way, which is for the Government to accept amendment 115 today without a Div...

And we get to where we need to be. I am extremely grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s approach.

rose—

rose—

I give way first to the Minister.

I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State. I was very clear in what I said to the Committee ...

I am grateful for the Minister’s sentiments. After we listened to the esteemed and senior Chair o...

It is lovely to hear all this agreement. In my view, the pressure is on the Government. It has be...

I do not think I could have been stronger in what I said. If needs be, we will vote on the amendm...

I say to the hon. Member, having sat here for 30 years, that he has every right to press his amen...

I agree; the clock is ticking. Let us get on with it. It feels like it has been 30 years since we...

I was about to call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Nort...

On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. I wanted some help as to how to explain—[Interruption.] When a...

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his point of order. I think it would be better i...

Perhaps that was due to turning 53 yesterday or perhaps it was because I was referred to as “seni...

The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee speaks about the membership of the commiss...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have an amendment to that effect: amendment 74, which is ab...

I agree with my good friend the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee that we should...

My right hon. and gallant Friend makes a perfectly respectable point that is sustainable under sc...

Sorry!

4.45 pm

I was going to say that the imprimatur of a pre-appointment hearing by the Northern Ireland Affai...

I am sure that whatever view each of us here today takes of this Bill, from whichever vantage poi...

I spoke in support of the Bill on Second Reading, although I highlighted several frictions and co...

I thank my good friend for allowing me to intervene. One thing the Bill might do, and I hope it d...

I thank my right hon. and gallant Friend for his intervention. He is absolutely right, and I hope...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the speech he is making. I, too, have concerns, but even if that w...

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and she is not wrong, but the point I would want to ma...

I think my hon. Friend is referring to amendment 97, which has been tabled by DUP Members and cal...

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, and she is not wrong. My personal view is that we ne...

First, the panel will already have to make an assessment of whether the information it has been g...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Minister is now in his place and I hope he i...

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland), who has engaged con...

Let me put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest. He was not too hard on me. Having served in the Pro...

I am grateful to the hon. Member.

This Committee stage highlights the fact that there is a ...

How would the hon. Member describe the 1998 agreement that let murderers out having served two ye...

Absolutely. I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Let me make this point: we are not going to...

rose—

I will give way to the hon. Lady, because she will take a different view, and I want to be respec...

It is fair to say that, over the past couple of years, there have been a lot of new converts to t...

People were in jail after due legal process. Not only did we have that corruption of justice then...

rose—

I will not give way at this stage if the right hon. Gentleman does not mind, because I am deviati...

I think in my earlier intervention I may have said that he was a part-time member of the UDR, but...

I thank my hon. Friend for that.

I have made reference to some of the substantive amendment...

Does my hon. Friend accept that the point he is raising is based on evidence that we already have...

Yes. It is appalling—sickening—that people organise events and dinners, fundraise, sell books and...

One example of that, as this House already knows because I have said it before, is Lexie Cummings...

I agree with my hon. Friend and I hope that Members will look on amendment 98 favourably.

F...

Can I take the hon. Gentleman back to what he was saying a little bit earlier? We obviously disag...

I know that some from Northern Ireland did not take technical briefings on this Bill, but sadly I...

rose—

rose—

I will give way in turn to the hon. Members, and then I will conclude.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is assured when I say that a number of others are making represent...

I accept that and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

I want to add to the hope of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), if...

I do not want to sow discord or break the prospect of agreement, but I will say this to those who...

Does my hon. Friend not find it rather strange, given the debates in this House over the past wee...

I have to give way to seniority, but my right hon. Friend makes the point incredibly well for me,...

On a point of order, Dame Eleanor, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has raised a...

The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly good point of order, and he is correct. We are in Committee ...

I am grateful to be called in this incredibly important debate. I had a speech prepared about the...

I thank my good friend very much for allowing me to intervene, and I totally endorse what he has ...

I thank my right hon. and gallant Friend for his intervention, and I pay tribute to his extraordi...

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. I think he and I are two of the people who have ...

There has to be a landing zone. We are never going to reach an agreement that allows us to adhere...

I would be keen to hear which amendments the hon. Gentleman is supporting. He wants to get this r...

That is a good example of technical details in the Bill that need work. Aspects of this do need w...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

With deep reticence, because I think my good friend from the Opposition will give me an extraordi...

I am absolutely not going to give the hon. Gentleman an extraordinarily hard time, and I thank hi...

The hon. Member is totally right. If it was my son or daughter, or the son or daughter of any of ...

I am mindful of many incidents in Northern Ireland. I think of La Mon, where on 17 February 1978 ...

I have huge sympathy for the hon. Member, whom I am close to and have huge affection for. He can ...

rose—

rose—

I will give way to my hon. Friend, then to the hon. Member, and then I will shut up.

Until the previous intervention, I was not entirely clear whether my hon. Friend was going to sup...

We are here because over many years our predecessors looked at this issue and thought that it was...

Like the hon. Member, I believe that, had there been action in the past, we may not have needed t...

This will be deeply unpopular on the Opposition Benches, but the reason we have inquests and they...

rose—

I will give way one last time and then I will finish.

As we all know, my hon. and gallant Friend has been a proud champion for veterans. He has probabl...

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for his kind words. I strongly agree with him that the Departm...

Will my hon. Friend give way one more time?

Yes. [Interruption.] What do you want me to do? [Interruption.]

I will keep it very brief. I commend my hon. Friend for his excellent speech, but may I suggest t...

I will sit down, but my hon. Friend is right: it is about truth and knowing answers, and we reall...

Order. I will call the Minister no later than 10 minutes to 7. You can see how many people are st...

I will try to be brief, because I appreciate that there are colleagues who have been working on t...

I thank Claire Hanna for keeping her remarks short.

Let us be clear. In this debate, which overall has been a very good one, there is great sincerity...

Order. As I said earlier, I will be calling the Members who will wind up the debate no later than...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). I should decla...

Today I will be speaking against several of the proposals in part 2, specifically clauses 18, 20,...

I will try to be brief, in order to allow colleagues to get in. First, I wish to say that the Bil...

Order. I am going to reduce the time limit, because there are four Members left to speak. If I re...

Thank you for calling me, Mr Evans. I want to speak first to amendment 98 and then to amendment 1...

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley). The issues s...

Like other Northern Irish Members, I live among so many people who, through no fault of their own...

Order. Please do not refer to the Prime Minister by name.

My apologies, Mr Evans. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State are playing the role of und...

I call Jim Shannon, but please resume your seat at either 10 to 7 or before.

Thank you, Mr Evans.

I am not unaware of the Government’s aim. We absolutely need to move f...

What would the hon. Gentleman say to the family of Dennis Hutchings in this situation?

I supported Dennis Hutchings, and I still do. I will speak for the victims every time, and I will...

We have had a very full debate. It has been emotional and emotive. It has lived up to what we sai...

I am grateful to the Minister for the way that he has approached the issue and the conversations ...

I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for the way that he has responded to my offer. We ...

I am hugely grateful to the Minister. Any of us could do it, but on behalf of everyone who has sp...

I thank the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. That is exactly what Committee of th...

I congratulate the Minister on this, but I have a specific question. I want to be absolutely cert...

indicated assent.

One of the leading business managers is nodding positively from the Bar of the House at my right ...

I also pay tribute to Members of the DUP, SDLP and Alliance—the Northern Ireland parties—who have...

I absolutely join my right hon. Friend in paying tribute to Members of parties from across Northe...

When the ICRIR meets and gets evidence, and perhaps gets evidence of the identity of some person ...

I am afraid that the answer to my right hon. Friend is conditional. That will be a matter for the...

I remind the Committee that 10 minutes are allocated for the first Division, with eight minutes f...