Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

The Secretary of State mentioned those who served in uniform. I remind him gently and kindly, but...

The hon. Gentleman gives a powerful and clear outline of the difficulty and pain that people feel...

Like the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I have met many victims of the violence and th...

It is not going to disappear. What we are looking to do is to have a full, independent, investiga...

I will just make a bit of progress and then take some more interventions.

Drawing its core ...

In all candour, I do not envy the Secretary of State’s task. He describes it as painful, difficul...

The right hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. As I said, it is widely acknowledged that this...

I think I heard my name in the list the Secretary of State read out earlier.

As early as Ap...

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I am very aware that the Defence Committee has pub...

The person who killed Lexie Cummings, who was murdered in Strabane, escaped across the border wit...

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me just a few minutes, I will answer that very question very...

I applaud the intent of the Bill and I want to see the end of the harassing of our veterans—peopl...

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. One of the things that has been clear in talking to ...

I am listening carefully to my right hon. Friend. May I ask him a linked question? Is not one of ...

My right hon. Friend makes the same point, and I will deal with that issue specifically in a few ...

I have a question about engagement with the Command Paper. The Secretary of State will know that ...

I do not recognise that description of events from the hon. Gentleman. There has been wide engage...

I recognise that my right hon. Friend and the Government are doing their level best in good faith...

My hon. Friend is right in the example that he gives. I will reference another one later. Operati...

I commend the Government for doing all they can to deal with this sensitive issue—as we have seen...

My hon. Friend makes a good and important point. He is quite right. One of the challenges is the ...

The Secretary of State used an interesting phrase when he said that others must play their part. ...

I know that the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues have previously raised cases with both me and...

Where is it?

I have not seen it yet, but I hope we will soon see something from the Irish Government to ensure...

On the OTR letters, some of us stated at the time, and have done since, that the only way that th...

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. That is why I made the point I just made, which I will repeat ...

rose—

I am just going to make a bit of progress.

It is crucial that people with the right level o...

Let me ask my right hon. Friend a specific question. If somebody who committed a terrorist act ap...

Yes. I will go further: as we will outline in guidance, people will not be able to benefit if the...

I welcome the fact that after four years and two general election manifestos, the Government have...

Yes, I can give that assurance. As will be shown throughout the Bill’s passage, we are absolutely...

rose—

I shall take one more intervention and then make a fair bit of progress.

I thank the Secretary of State allowing this intervention. On the matter of the on-the-runs, can ...

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am not going to comment on particular cases, ...

Will my right hon. Friend give way on the criminal justice point?

Just a moment.

Any existing cases in which a decision has been taken to prosecute will be a...

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again. Will he help me on two matters? Fir...

My hon. Friend, as ever, makes insightful points. We are cognisant of those things and will go th...

Will the Secretary of State give way?

No, I will make some progress.

A major new oral history initiative will be launched. We wil...

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin ...

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s point, and I know that it is one that he and his colleagu...

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, let me say that I am sure that colleagues will be aw...

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out the measures in the Bill. Since the Bill ...

The hon. Gentleman, for whom I have huge respect, has just misspoken. Three hundred thousand peop...

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for correcting the record. Three thousand and more ...

I want to build on the point my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Ne...

I am grateful for the intervention. I have some understanding of the Truth and Reconciliation Com...

I do not want to pre-empt the rest of the hon. Gentleman’s speech—it is vital that victims groups...

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is indeed pre-empting the remaining parts of m...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that justice is just a word if it does not come to fruition? The cu...

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. We are not talking about whether we want to ...

I do not necessarily disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s line of reasoning at all, but on immunity...

Since the signing of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement there have been long periods in which poli...

I appreciate the spirit of what the hon. Gentleman is seeking to achieve, but may I put this to h...

The alternative, clearly, was in the Stormont House agreement. Plus there is the additional learn...

rose—

I am going to make some progress, as others want to get in; I am aware of your desire for us to g...

The shadow Minister has spent some time admiring the problem, but I believe he is very light on t...

My party will be voting against this Bill today because of the equivalence it makes between peopl...

I will give way to the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith)...

I served in Northern Ireland, and I do not feel in any degree that there was equivalence between ...

I have been very clear: I want to make sure that the rights of victims and veterans are equal to ...

rose—

I am going to make progress. The provisions of this Bill will also have the independent commissio...

In his opening remarks, the hon. Gentleman suggested that rape or sexual offences committed in co...

I think the hon. Gentleman needs to read the Bill for himself. There are circumstances in which p...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will make a bit of progress. On these Benches, we wanted to work with the Government to find a ...

Just the first two Front-Bench speeches and the interventions from Members across the House clear...

Briefly, my hon. Friend is right. Many Conservative Members served in Northern Ireland during the...

My hon. Friend is right. It is a sadness that there has been that dearth, which has led to huge f...

Hear, hear!

There was no need for such an endorsement; it is nice to see the collegiate nature of the Select ...

It is a quick one. Building on that point, does my hon. Friend agree that the importance of our r...

I agree fundamentally with my hon. Friend. I urge the Secretary of State to continue his conversa...

Can the hon. Gentleman reflect on what the Secretary of State said at the Dispatch Box? He said t...

Well, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), who is no longe...

I have listened intently to my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee and I do not think t...

My right hon. Friend is probably right, but of course there were many veterans who were also vict...

I wasn’t doing that.

I know he is not doing that—

Well, don’t put words in my mouth then.

And I am not putting words into his mouth. I did reference the fact that the Veterans Commissione...

I call the SNP spokesman.

2.52 pm

Could I begin by thanking the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Cono...

Given the length of time that this has all gone on, is it not quite clear that there is no way th...

I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention. He is certainly correct that this is a very d...

The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point about closure. I do not think that so far in th...

I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. No, I do not agree with that and I will go on to e...

The issues that the Bill seeks to address are some of the most sensitive and challenging in our n...

I really appreciate the contribution that the former Secretary of State is making, and I know tha...

I agree with my right hon. Friend’s point. The widows of RUC members, and other victims, are at t...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

I am sorry; I will not give way.

Above all, consent builds trust, which in turn increases t...

I hope that the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) will e...

indicated assent.

So there is a genuine issue about victims, but victims who were serving soldiers.

I have to...

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind me saying so, I think he is mischaracterising the concern of ...

Actually, I would not want to mischaracterise the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks, because I have ...

I would be inclined to agree with many of the speeches made from the Opposition Benches, not leas...

I tried to raise this point with the Leader of the Opposition and I pose it to anybody: what do p...

That is exactly the central point. There are perhaps two ways of getting the knowledge. One way i...

Does the right hon. Member concede that a middle path is to have investigations, rather than revi...

That is precisely what the truth recovery process is meant to achieve.

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

I will one more time, but I would like to develop my argument, fascinating though these intervent...

I apologise, but I want to develop this point. Is the Bill not, in fact, about changing and tight...

I can happily live with that compromise, if the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) can do...

It is not just about those who were dragged through the courts; it is about those who have been a...

That is absolutely right. It is all about protecting innocent service personnel from the vexatiou...

indicated assent.

indicated assent.

I am glad to see the Secretary of State and the Minister of State nodding, because it is essentia...

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). He and I have pa...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point. Does he agree that these provisions are not something ...

I agree, and I hope that the point is not lost.

No intended time, and no consequence. With ...

Again, my hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Is he aware that the chief suspect for the murder o...

That is exactly why I raise these issues. I want hon. Members to know that this is not just about...

If we have speeches lasting 16 or 17 minutes, we will not get everyone in. Guidance was given ear...

I have huge respect for many of my colleagues in this House, and I have listened intently to what...

I thank the hon. Member for giving way. I know that he speaks passionately on behalf of many vete...

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman 100%. We have a job here to go down that route. It must be ...

Not slightly; you are well over, Mr Mercer.

Okay. I just want those soldiers’ voices to be heard at the end of this. We talked about the two-...

Order. I remind people again that 10 minutes is the target we are looking at, otherwise I will in...

I will point out one thing at the outset. I am sitting with colleagues from Northern Ireland arou...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Do you know what? I won’t.

The Bill is attempting to close down the police ombudsman’s oppo...

Thank you very much for keeping within the unofficial, but fairly official time limit.

4.21...

I rise to speak in this debate because I have had a long interest in Northern Ireland. I served i...

The right hon. Gentleman touches on a good point, because the commission would consider what the ...

I understand that. As I said earlier, with all humility to my colleagues from Northern Ireland, I...

I am very conscious that this debate is most likely being watched by victims and survivors in Nor...

I am honoured to speak in the debate and I understand the sensitivities, the emotion and the hurt...

You’re a young man.

I know—my right hon. Friend served the year before I was born—but many people would not remember ...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Labour party is the party of the armed forces?

No, I certainly do not. As I said, I am trying to temper my remarks, but Labour is going to vote ...

I think my hon. Friend is making the point on his own, but I extend the hand of friendship and em...

As I wind up, I want to make clear that this is not a personal attack on the hon. Member for Hove...

At the outset, may I put on record that I think we can all be here in support of UK armed forces ...

Thank you for calling me for the graveyard shift, Mr Deputy Speaker.

There has been plenty ...

I certainly laboured that point, but it is a point that really needs labouring. Does my hon. Frie...

My personal view is that we have to show the requisite support to our veterans, our armed forces ...

We have heard a number of helpful and interesting contributions on what is a difficult subject. T...

I commend my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for introducing the Bi...

Does my hon. Friend agree that, as important as such an initiative is, we must make sure that it ...

I agree with my hon. Friend’s point. It of course needs to be fair, balanced and proportionate an...

There are two.

I beg the House’s pardon—there are two. But that says it all. In opposing this legislation, the L...

I rise, like many of my colleagues did, to explain my opposition to the Bill as it currently stan...

I thank my good and hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene. Does he agree that, in 1994, the Pr...

I thank my right hon. Friend and colleague and say that there is a substantial degree of accuracy...

Does the hon. Gentleman therefore agree that the timetable envisaged in the programme motion is w...

I thank my hon. Friend, the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, for that observation...

For far too long, for my life and beyond, Northern Ireland, the Republic and Great Britain have b...

rose—

I call Jim Shannon.

5.37 pm

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate; I thought the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Han...

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) said ...

The right hon. Gentleman clearly outlines that he was a friend of Captain Robert Nairac, and we a...

I do not want the House to be misled. I was a guardsman; Captain Nairac was a captain, and in the...

The right hon. Gentleman and Captain Nairac served together, and that is the important thing to p...

It is important for the House to recognise that sometimes politicians talk about how powerfully t...

Order. If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would like me to come back to him after th...

Thank you. My brother William and I used to go down to my cousin Kenneth’s back in the ’60s. My c...

I have huge affection for the hon. Gentleman. I can see the emotion and the anguish written all o...

There is no price on justice. I am trying, perhaps haphazardly and not with the focus that I shou...

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I am sick in the stomach that murderers are apparently...

I think we all like the hon. Gentleman—I probably love him; it is not a secret. I think he is a g...

The legacy of the conflict is like a fog all around us. It affects politics in the everyday, and ...

It is an honour to be able to close this debate on behalf of the Opposition. I want to make clear...

The point I made is that, throughout the whole debate in the many hours we have been here, only o...

The hon. Member needs to reflect on the fact that this is not about us today; it is about the peo...

It is a pleasure to respond to this debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government. It has been a v...

I am encouraged by the consensual tone that my right hon. Friend is striking, and by his search f...

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, the Chair of the Select Committee, and I shall be saying s...

Will the Minister give way?

Will the hon. Gentleman bear with me while I give this commitment?

We would look to try and...

I am grateful to the Minister.

Given that the period between First Reading and Second Readi...

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but the timetabling of today’s Second Reading debate was agr...

I noted the Minister’s claim that the Government had engaged with various victims groups on a pri...

I would describe the “clear disjoint” as not being a clear disjoint, because that was a journalis...

This is a very serious issue and it would be great to clarify this. The model bill team on Queen’...

The direct answer to that is no. The proper place for us to test some of these questions will be ...

Will my right hon. Friend assure me and the House that there is nothing in the Bill that preclude...

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and he is absolutely right. There is nothing in the Bill...

I hesitate to distract the Minister from his theatrical memories—he is doing very well—but I woul...

It is always a delight to be silenced by the quiet man. We will have to come back to those matter...

Will the Minister commit to having another look at the five-year pipeline of inquests so that the...

That is certainly something that we will happily take a look at. There is no proposal even in the...

I of course welcome the Minister saying from the Dispatch Box that he will look at x, y and z. Do...

I agree with my hon. Friend that we have to build on the bits of the current framework that are w...

A moment ago the Minister mentioned the word “consensus”. If in the Committee stage there is cros...

Given that we are not at this moment negotiating another confidence and supply arrangement, I do ...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

No, I am going to conclude.

The Northern Ireland that I was born into 50 years ago this yea...