UK Parliament / Open data

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 3 November 2020, in the House of Commons, led by Ben Wallace. The answering member was John Healey.
Report stage. New clause 1, debated with new clause 2-7 and amendments, and withdrawn. Proceedings interrupted (Programme order, 23 September). New clause 5 negatived on division (266 to 336). Clause 6, amendment 32 negatived on division (262 to 335). Schedule 1, amendment 1 negatived on division (269 to 334). Third reading. Debate interrupted (Programme order, 23 September). Agreed to on question (345 to 260). Bill passed.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

683 cc201-1320 

Session

2019-21

Department

Ministry of Defence

Legislative stage

Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

Proxy voting

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber
Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill 2019-21
Wednesday, 18 March 2020
Bills
House of Commons
Overseas Operations (Service Personnel And Veterans) Bill
Wednesday, 23 September 2020
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beamish | 683 c201 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 cc201-212 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 2—Limitation of time f...


Show all contributions (131)
Lord Beamish | 683 c212 (Link to this contribution)

For the sake of time, I will not speak to every single amendment.

Lord Beamish | 683 cc212-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend says, “Please do,” but I am sure that other Members want to contribute to this deb...

Stephen Doughty | 683 c213 (Link to this contribution)

I concur with much of what my right hon. Friend is saying. He has always been a champion of the a...

Lord Beamish | 683 c213 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. Time and again, supposed Government witnesses went against the Government. My hon. Friend...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 c213 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman has a long track record of supporting the armed services here. Is he con...

Lord Beamish | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

I am, and I will come onto part 2 in a minute. The hon. Gentleman has hit on an issue relating to...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Beamish | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

I will let the Minister intervene, even though he is very reluctant to give way to me. I asked hi...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

I just wish to intervene briefly. It is a litany of accusations and they are complete rubbish. Wh...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

Order. That is a perfectly reasonable question, but, although it is not exactly unparliamentary l...

Lord Beamish | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

It is better than he did in Committee when he called me a hypocrite, Madam Deputy Speaker, but if...

Julian Lewis | 683 c214 (Link to this contribution)

I have put in three written questions about this Bill, and yesterday I had answers to them. Two o...

Lord Beamish | 683 c215 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is correct. That came out in evidence that we took throughout the Commit...

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi | 683 c215 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend has always been a strong supporter of the armed forces. Does he agree that, ...

Lord Beamish | 683 cc215-6 (Link to this contribution)

But it really does not matter, because if my hon. Friend wants to see the attitude of the Ministe...

David Davis | 683 c216 (Link to this contribution)

I have a lot of sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but may I drag him away fr...

Lord Beamish | 683 c216 (Link to this contribution)

It would. That and judicial oversight would improve the Bill tremendously. It would then actually...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 c216 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the officers who served under Operation Banner...

Lord Beamish | 683 c217 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a clear point: do I feel it right that, frankly, people in their 70s or ...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 c217 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. The fact is this will end up in Northern Irela...

Lord Beamish | 683 cc217-8 (Link to this contribution)

I defer to the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge of Northern Ireland politics, but I will say that this ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 c218 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Just for clarification, in the silent exchange that the right hon. Gentleman and I have ju...

Lord Beamish | 683 c218 (Link to this contribution)

On one occasion, I spoke in Committee for an hour and 10 minutes.

Sarah Dines | 683 c218 (Link to this contribution)

Could the right hon. Gentleman take a moment to reflect on what he said in his opening remarks, w...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 c218 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Let us get this straight. Interventions will also be brief this afternoon. We want interve...

Lord Beamish | 683 c218 (Link to this contribution)

I made a mistake this morning, because I was going to count the number of interventions. There we...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 c219 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I do not care how many interventions there were in Committee. This debate is not about Com...

Lord Beamish | 683 c219 (Link to this contribution)

Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was being polite in replying to the hon. Member for Derbyshire...

Jack Lopresti | 683 c219 (Link to this contribution)

Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that the proposed six-year time limit applies from the p...

Lord Beamish | 683 c219 (Link to this contribution)

He who waits it all comes to. I was going to answer that point in a minute.

The MOD argued ...

Lloyd Russell-Moyle | 683 c219 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend does not have to if he does not want to.

Will the passing of the Bill ...

Lord Beamish | 683 cc219-220 (Link to this contribution)

It does. The Bill’s provisions will also mean that prisoners will have more right to sue the MOJ,...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 683 c220 (Link to this contribution)

I had been hoping to manage this afternoon’s proceedings without a time limit, but I do not think...

Tom Tugendhat | 683 cc220-1 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) set me a target of 30 minutes, Madam Deputy Spe...

Lord Beamish | 683 c221 (Link to this contribution)

I like the hon. Member, but he is talking complete nonsense. If he has read the Smith case, which...

Tom Tugendhat | 683 c221 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but the right hon. Member is completely wrong. If he reads “The Fog of Law” written b...

Lord Beamish | 683 c221 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Tugendhat | 683 c222 (Link to this contribution)

I will carry on.

It is also an issue for the human rights of some of the people we are figh...

Lloyd Russell-Moyle | 683 c222 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman, who is a good Member and a friend, is making a really interesting argument, b...

Tom Tugendhat | 683 c222 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry that the hon. Member is failing to see it, because I thought I explained it quite clea...

Tom Tugendhat | 683 c222 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way any more; I had two interventions and they are done. We see again and again h...

Dan Jarvis | 683 c223 (Link to this contribution)

I declare an interest as a veteran. It is a pleasure to be called in the debate and a pleasure to...

Stephen Doughty | 683 c223 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making points with which I absolutely concur. The prohibition on torture is abs...

Dan Jarvis | 683 c224 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend raises an incredibly valuable point. That is a real risk and an unintended consequ...

Jack Lopresti | 683 c224 (Link to this contribution)

There is nothing in the Bill that prohibits any investigation within or after the five years for ...

Dan Jarvis | 683 c224 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the comments towards the end of his remarks. There is a weight of ...

Julian Lewis | 683 c224 (Link to this contribution)

When the Defence Committee was looking at the matter in the previous two Parliaments, it recommen...

Dan Jarvis | 683 cc224-5 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. I certainly assume that all of us attend t...

David Davis | 683 c225 (Link to this contribution)

It is a privilege to follow the gallant and hon. Gentleman, who is a co-signatory with me to amen...

Bob Stewart | 683 c225 (Link to this contribution)

Article 3 of the Geneva conventions covers torture and crimes against humanity, and there is a co...

David Davis | 683 cc225-6 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. and gallant Friend is exactly right, and I want to see the reputation that comes from tha...

Julian Lewis | 683 c226 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with my right hon. Friend that the prosecution system is not out of control, but does he ...

David Davis | 683 cc226-8 (Link to this contribution)

I will tell my right hon. Friend in a moment exactly why I am not reassured by that, but he is qu...

Nigel Evans | 683 c228 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I will let the right hon. Member read the quote before finishing.

David Davis | 683 c228 (Link to this contribution)

I will read the quote:

“Would we be content that a member of the Iraqi Government’s consent...

Gavin Robinson | 683 cc228-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate on Report, and to do so early, following the right h...

Colum Eastwood | 683 c229 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Member recognise that there is already an international agreement—it is called the ...

Gavin Robinson | 683 cc229-230 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member’s contribution is timely. We know what commitments were given during the New Deca...

Stephen Doughty | 683 c230 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making an incredibly strong and important point. Does he not also agree tha...

Gavin Robinson | 683 c230 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right that there is a huge danger. The Government are not tearing up our in...

Nigel Evans | 683 c230 (Link to this contribution)

We will have to introduce a five-minute limit now, because of the pressure of speakers.

Jack Lopresti | 683 cc230-2 (Link to this contribution)

I will address briefly some of the points raised in this excellent debate. First, I would like to...

Emma Lewell-Buck | 683 cc231-3 (Link to this contribution)

I will speak to the amendments and new clauses tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Op...

Sarah Atherton | 683 cc233-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), who is a fellow p...

Jim Shannon | 683 c234 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady brings up a pertinent point. Obviously, the Bill provides protection, but there doe...

Sarah Atherton | 683 c234 (Link to this contribution)

I am just about to say that they, too, should be afforded certainty that the unique operational p...

Alistair Carmichael | 683 cc234-5 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to you for the opportunity to take part in this debate, Mr Speaker. As the hon. Mem...

Joy Morrissey | 683 c236 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for being a tireless advocate for veterans and making this Bi...

Stuart Anderson | 683 c236 (Link to this contribution)

I was not in the Chamber when that was said earlier, but it is fair to say that I made over 40 in...

Joy Morrissey | 683 c236 (Link to this contribution)

It was indeed an honour to serve on the Committee, because I myself, although not serving in the ...

Joy Morrissey | 683 c236 (Link to this contribution)

Not at the moment.

The issue of derogation before an overseas conflict or an overseas missi...

Sarah Owen | 683 cc236-7 (Link to this contribution)

Since this Bill came before us, I have had serious misgivings about its aim and its effectiveness...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c237 (Link to this contribution)

It is important to correct the record. The claims that the hon. Lady refers to have not happened ...

Sarah Owen | 683 cc237-8 (Link to this contribution)

As has been raised many times by Members on both sides of the House, we would like to know exactl...

Carla Lockhart | 683 cc238-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) in this debate.

My...

James Sunderland | 683 c239 (Link to this contribution)

Having been spared the commitment of serving on the Bill Committee, I am fortunate also to have b...

Bob Stewart | 683 c239 (Link to this contribution)

Not only the ambulance-chasing lawyers, but it is really good that we will not ever see the Iraq ...

James Sunderland | 683 cc239-240 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more.

I am aware that several amendments were tabled in Committee, but no...

Lloyd Russell-Moyle | 683 cc240-1 (Link to this contribution)

We all agree that the aims of the Bill are noble, and that the idea of revolving investigations o...

Imran Ahmad Khan | 683 cc241-2 (Link to this contribution)

During last year’s general election campaign, the protection of our service personnel and veteran...

Nadia Whittome | 683 cc242-3 (Link to this contribution)

Elizabeth Wilmshurst, the former deputy legal adviser at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, say...

Stuart Anderson | 683 cc243-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure that I will have a different view to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittom...

Gareth Bacon | 683 cc244-5 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to speak in the debate and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 cc245-6 (Link to this contribution)

May I say at the outset that I am extremely proud of our armed services and their conduct, their ...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c246 (Link to this contribution)

It may be helpful if at this stage I restate to my hon. Friend the commitment in the Conservative...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 c246 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for getting to his feet and making that commitment again from the Dispatch B...

Bob Stewart | 683 c246 (Link to this contribution)

I support exactly what my very great friend is saying, but may I point out to the House that no B...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 683 cc246-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my dear friend, who has travelled widely in Northern Ireland, both as a soldier and as my...

Olivia Blake | 683 c247 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to support amendments 1 to 10 in particular. I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member...

Kim Johnson | 683 cc248-9 (Link to this contribution)

When the Government brought this Bill forward, their aim was to end vexatious claims against form...

Apsana Begum | 683 c249 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to be called in this important debate.

I believe that this House should promo...

Bob Stewart | 683 c249 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my good friend the Deputy Speaker and the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. I do no...

Apsana Begum | 683 c249 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making his point, but I disagree with him. The point I am making i...

Nigel Evans | 683 c250 (Link to this contribution)

Wind-ups will begin at 5.26, so I will ask whoever is on their feet at that time to resume their ...

Stephen Farry | 683 c250 (Link to this contribution)

I have co-sponsored a number of amendments in the hope—perhaps it is naive—that some of the rough...

Bob Stewart | 683 c250 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to oppose that comment. The Bill does not decriminalise torture. Torture remains a major c...

Stephen Farry | 683 cc250-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his comments. I very much respect his service, and his commi...

Nigel Evans | 683 c251 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We must come to the winding-up speeches. I call Stewart Malcolm McDonald.

Stewart Malcolm McDonald | 683 c251 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am only sorry we did not get to hear the end of the speec...

John Healey | 683 cc253-6 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I am going to deal with some of the poi...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c255 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate all the contributions made this afternoon, some of which were very thoughtful.

Lord Beamish | 683 c257 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister has just accused my right hon. Friend the...

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 683 c257 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure the Minister meant “unintentionally disingenuous”.

Johnny Mercer | 683 cc257-8 (Link to this contribution)

It is quite extraordinary the way that individuals carry on in this House. That is precisely why ...

Stewart Malcolm McDonald | 683 c258 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister give way on that point?

Johnny Mercer | 683 cc258-9 (Link to this contribution)

I think I have put up with enough this afternoon; I will not take any interventions.

The Bi...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c259 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not giving way—I have suffered enough. The House has suffered enough at the hands of the...

Lord Beamish | 683 c259 (Link to this contribution)

Actually, it was the Minister of State who was dealing with the Al-Sweady inquiry. As I told the ...

Johnny Mercer | 683 cc259-260 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate the intervention, but the fact is that when the Al-Sweady inquiry took place, the ri...

Lord Beamish | 683 c260 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and others have tried to i...

Johnny Mercer | 683 c260 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Beamish | 683 c260 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not going to take an intervention. I am sorry; the Minister, both in Committee and tonig...

Ben Wallace | 683 cc261-275 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

First, I acknowledge the hard work...

Ben Wallace | 683 c276 (Link to this contribution)

No, I will not. It is a bit rich for them to come here today and condemn the legislation. On the ...

Ben Wallace | 683 c276 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has had plenty to say on the Bill; I will not give way. We do not have time to...

Lord Beamish | 683 c276 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister has now added mind-reading to his many sk...

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 683 c276 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want the point of order to become a subject of debate, but obviously—[Interruption.] Tha...

Ben Wallace | 683 cc276-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is a shame that the right hon. Gentleman used up more debating time by raising a bogus point o...

John Healey | 683 c277 (Link to this contribution)

We all want the same thing—Labour, the Government, the public, the armed forces: we all want to p...

Stewart Malcolm McDonald | 683 cc277-8 (Link to this contribution)

I also thank the Clerks and the staff of the House who have worked on the Bill and the Library st...

Lord Beamish | 683 c278 (Link to this contribution)

May I too thank the Bill Committee Clerks, who worked very hard? I congratulate the Minister for ...

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