Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [Lords]

First, I should put on the record my gratitude and that of my colleagues for the representations ...

Given that national parks might cover one or more metro mayor areas—for example, the Peak Distric...

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We want to see co-ordination, and there are already ...

In the east midlands, there is the D2N2—Derby Derbyshire-Nottingham Nottinghamshire—which may or ...

Devolution is a bottom-up process; it is done by consensus. I know that the hon. Gentleman will h...

Our national parks are precious national assets. Millions of people use and enjoy them every year...

Given that national parks are local authorities for these purposes, will the hon. Lady reflect up...

Red herrings, Aunt Sallies: I am merely expressing the unsuitability of the new clause in applica...

I do not know whether I could be clearer on this: the debate around fracking is perhaps for anoth...

The Minister makes an important point. The Government have not given us time to respond correctly...

As the MP for the Northumberland national park, may I say to the hon. Lady that this issue has be...

I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady does not agree with the cuts that have been made to the No...

I understand that the hon. Lady has not spoken to the national park authorities, but that is not ...

I am sure the hon. Gentleman believes that the Government should get with the plan. However, we a...

I will not take any more interventions. I have already given way to hon. Members.

The natio...

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Ah, what a rich and delicious choice! I call Mr Robert Neill.

4.45 pm

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

That was without any doubt the least-informed speech I have heard fr...

As the shadow Minister would not give way to me for a second time, I wish to put on the record th...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The troubling thing is this: applications for fracking, licen...

Is my hon. Friend aware that quite a campaign has been whipped up across the country about the po...

I have always taken the view in politics that the further left you go, the greater the conspiracy...

As chair of the all-party group on national parks, I do have some interest in this matter. Additi...

I can assure the House that we had no idea that this new clause was coming. It is almost five pag...

I see my right hon. Friend’s concerns in that regard, but the reality is probably that many natio...

I wish to clarify that this proposed new clause has no impact on planning as they would affect na...

I am aware that the national parks have been asking for it, and I accept the Minister’s statement...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for generously giving way again, and I can offer that reassurance. The...

I thank the Minister for his helpful comment. Perhaps more discussion could have been had before ...

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Order. The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has for some minutes now been poised ...

Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I have never felt disadvantaged by my right hon. Friend the Member for...

I thank you, Mr Speaker, for drawing such attention to the fact that I “beetled” into the Chamber...

I do not intend to comment for long. I merely wish to record my thanks to hon. Members who have c...

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 2—Local Government Con...

One of the difficulties involved in the debates we have had on this so-called constitutional Bill...

The hon. Gentleman is making a very thoughtful speech. Does he not agree that the fact that devol...

The right hon. Gentleman talks about moving at pace and then immediately suggests that England sh...

I share the hon. Gentleman’s view about financial powers going alongside the responsibility for p...

I am delighted to hear the Liberal Democrats proposing something in opposition that, sadly, they ...

Order. At any rate, the hon. Gentleman would certainly not have done so in those almost forgotten...

Indeed, Mr Speaker. We all have scars and sins that are best left unrevealed, otherwise that can ...

I intend to speak at greater length on this issue, but as the hon. Gentleman has given me the opp...

I am sure that those words will have been heard throughout the Chamber and, more importantly perh...

All this consensus can sometimes feel a little bit disconcerting, but I think it is a good thing....

I can barely believe that my hon. Friend would be anything other than consensual. In recent weeks...

Is my hon. Friend concerned that there are absent voices from the consensus thus far, in the shap...

To an extent, their voices have to be captured by those who seek elected office, whether in this ...

The hon. Gentleman asks a perfectly reasonable question, and, just for once, it is a question tha...

That is very helpful, Madam Deputy Speaker. In that case, I will limit my final remarks to a brie...

I begin with new clauses 1 to 4, which propose the establishment of a local government constituti...

Will the Minister confirm that, as the talks on Scotland’s money versus that of the rest of the U...

My right hon. Friend tempts me to go further than I can in the specific context of the Bill, but ...

If the Minister would like to wait until the end of the debate, I shall, with the leave of the Ho...

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given that we have had such a productive and healthy debate so f...

I shall speak specifically to Government amendment 27. The proposals for combined authorities are...

The hon. Gentleman is advancing a powerful argument. He is absolutely right about consensus. He i...

I entirely agree. In the end, of course, a district council as a whole will have to go to an area...

I absolutely hear what the hon. Gentleman says. We must do what is right. If devolution is to be ...

Standing the test of time is about what works economically and what works for growth, because tha...

I think I agree with the main thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but we might well grant th...

That is an added complication. At present, three separate police and crime commissioners cover th...

I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that we live in an extremely complicated country both culturally ...

Absolutely, and therefore I support the principles of the Bill, but having said that, and while a...

I shall be brief. I am pleased to follow the Chair of the Select Committee, not least because I t...

In his speech on 14 May, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:

“I will not impose this mode...

I agree wholeheartedly. I devoutly hope that Ministers even at this late hour will recognise that...

I want to speak in support of new clause 10 and to make a brief comment on amendment 7. The new c...

I am getting confused. A few seconds ago, the right hon. Gentleman was trying to convince the Hou...

We saw in the Scottish referendum that, if you seek to engage with young people, they will respon...

The right hon. Gentleman is making his arguments very well and I do not want to take him to task ...

I continue to argue strongly that we should have a democratically elected second Chamber, and we ...

The right hon. Gentleman said that the interests of young people are not properly reflected, part...

On the hon. Gentleman’s last point, I of course accept that this is an arbitrary line. The curren...

If the right hon. Gentleman were charged with a serious offence, would he really want 16 and 17-y...

With all due respect, I think that that is a distraction from the issue we are debating today. I ...

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that some of the Conservative Members’ arguments do not quite...

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady about that. The argument made by Conservative Members could...

I rise to speak to amendment 2, which stands in my name and those of a number of right hon. and h...

I am trying to work out what the hon. Gentleman is trying to achieve by this amendment. Is he jus...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. My amendment seeks not to ensure that such devol...

I wish briefly to go through some of the new clauses and amendments. The hon. Member for Nottingh...

The hon. Lady is misunderstanding me and I need to clarify my remarks. I am not at all equating a...

I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman includes me in the statement that we are Unionists, because...

I say that only because the hon. Lady is elected now to the Union Parliament. This is not the Sco...

The hon. Gentleman’s new clause 5 refers to

“the desirability, impact and process necessary...

I shall speak to amendment 56 and the Government manuscript amendment to it. Although I added my ...

I wish to support some of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Wil...

The London example is a case in point. That system of mayoralty was assented to by the population...

That is exactly the point I am making. That is why there has been affection for the Mayors, even ...

May I suggest something that might be even worse to my hon. Friend? It is that the outcome of the...

If Madam Deputy Speaker will indulge me, I compare that with the Council of Ministers in the cont...

Just to continue that thought, will my hon. Friend not join me in having some concern that the pe...

I do not accept that. I am not a big-is-good advocate. I think that small can well be beautiful. ...

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech very much and following it closely. He may be interested to...

I agree with my hon. Friend. Imposing structures does not give them legitimacy. What gives them l...

I have got a better chance of surviving a long number of years if we keep the NHS out of the hon....

I do not think the Prime Minister had any intention of making me the Secretary of State for Healt...

Does the hon. Gentleman feel that the 50% of people in Scotland who voted for non-separatist part...

The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. They got exactly what they wanted. They got a referendu...

It was worse in ’97.

It was indeed worse in 1997.

However, the majority in each constituency, or at least a plur...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the only reason why the Scottish Conservative party is present...

I was going to say that it was because of my efforts in Glenrothes in 1997, but I think that that...

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I totally disagree with everything t...

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. Having one party in office forever can cre...

Order. Before I call the next speaker, I gently remind the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) ...

It is of course a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-M...

I am in the unfortunate position of not only having to follow my hon. Friends the Members for Gai...

I am concerned about amendment 56 and the Government’s acceptance of it, albeit subject to the pr...

I hope that the Minister is listening, because it is open to him to intervene on my hon. Friend, ...

Of course, it would be open to the Minister to do so. I understand—I have been told privately, no...

May I take the opportunity, as presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edwar...

I am grateful for that, so far as it goes, but will the Minister explain how he will deal with th...

Of course we want to find consensus. Tempted as I am to go down the route of discussing individua...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, so far as it goes, but basically he is saying that the Governmen...

This is an interesting triangular discussion and it is terribly important. What I think my hon. F...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention and for his suggestion that we might be able...

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I will talk more about this issue when I speak to the new ...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, but I am afraid that what he said goes aga...

My hon. Friend is making a characteristically robust speech. I am slightly concerned that he does...

It is interesting that the opposition leader on Poole unitary authority said he thought it was im...

The situation is very difficult, and it is pretty clear that the Government are making decisions ...

I instinctively think that the hon. Gentleman is right. I say that not only because I have on my ...

I have tried to follow this closely but I may not have understood amendment 56, which I am trying...

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and perhaps the Minister will reply to it. If we are talking a...

Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart...

My right hon. Friend knows all about levers, having been a deputy Chief Whip. That is exactly how...

I am making the assumption that my hon. Friend would support the amendment proposed by my hon. Fr...

Absolutely. I am very supportive of that amendment, but I have not yet had a chance to talk about...

I will try to keep my comments brief, because contrasts are always a pleasant thing. It is a plea...

And lengthily.

And at length, it has to be said.

I want to tell the House about something that happened in...

Does the experience of the East Riding and Hull referendum lead my hon. Friend to be in sympathy ...

It leaves me in a position of having profound doubts about amendment 56. I really appreciated the...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

My hon. Friend has had a fair crack and I am going to sit down.

This group includes a number of new clauses and amendments, so I want to focus primarily on those...

The hon. Gentleman, as an expert in this area, will be aware that people in rural areas are on av...

The hon. Gentleman seems to support my case for a fair equalisation mechanism, which I am pleased...

The watchword throughout the debate in Committee and, indeed, today has been “consensus”, but I n...

Will the Minister give way?

I will give way when I touch on some of the points discussed earlier if the hon. Gentleman wants ...

Given that there is now no need for an inquiry, since there is a precedent in Scotland—I congratu...

I thank the hon. Gentleman. I recognise what he says. There are complexities in devolving such ma...

Will the Minister clarify what he has said about nobody being forced to go down this route? Does ...

To clarify for my hon. Friend, areas will not be forced to be part of a devolution deal. If a may...

So if a council is part of a combined authority and it objects to there being a mayor, but the ma...

My hon. Friend is correct. Where an existing combined authority and a number of the local authori...

I am very concerned that the Isle of Wight and Hampshire may or may not be subject to the rule ab...

It is entirely a matter for the Isle of Wight whether it would like to be part of any devolution ...

I would like the Minister to reassure the House that the emphasis will be—I think the shadow Mini...

The emphasis is absolutely be on local agreement and consensus. There is no power to impose devol...

The Minister will know I have already referred to the fact that there are two different contendin...

I think the assurance I can give the hon. Gentleman is that what is done will proceed by consensu...

We need to ensure we get the safeguards and assurances on amendment 27, so that however well-mean...

My hon. Friend has discussed with me outside this Chamber some of the issues of interest to him i...

Will the Minister give way?

I need to make progress as I am very conscious of the time.

I thank hon. Members for tablin...

I am grateful to the Minister, who is making an articulate exposition of his position, for giving...

The intention is to deliver what local areas want, and therefore the Bill gives us the flexibilit...

I will be delighted not to press amendment 1, if the Minister can tell the House what shape or st...

We will be talking about that with the LGA and other interested parties, but we are still in the ...

I know the Minister does not want to comment in detail, but, moving from the general to the parti...

The powers already exist for the Secretary of State to review and change local authority boundari...

I am struggling to square the amendment with what the Minister has just said. There is no talk ab...

I hear what my hon. Friend says, but it remains the case that a council or group of councils can ...

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Secretary of State would not, under any circumstances, force...

I remind my hon. Friend of my earlier comments: those powers already exist. The Government’s inte...

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 12—Review of devolutio...

It might help if I indicate now that at the appropriate time I shall seek the leave of the House ...

I would like to comment on this group, which includes my own amendment 60. It is relevant to what...

I should not be, but I am tempted to respond. If that is the hon. Gentleman’s concern, why should...

The Secretary of State does have the power to pull back those experiments and those efforts at de...

Is not the fundamental point that the Bill that we are about to pass may remain on the statute bo...

That is always a problem, but in that eventuality, if the amendment were passed, an independent p...

I am happy to respond to this short debate dealing with new clause 9, tabled by my hon. Friend th...

My right hon. Friend is seeking to be very helpful. The difficulty that exists is that the safegu...

At that point, the order that the Secretary of State has signed to allow the devolution in the fi...

Might I press my right hon. Friend a little further? I am avoiding being too specific about the H...

I believe that that assurance is present in existing legislation. If it is not, we will make sure...

The Minister has to understand that this is endemic in the nature of the process. It will become ...

Order.

I am trying to assist the Minister, who I think needs just a moment longer.

Unfortunately it is me that makes the decisions—we could do this over two days—but I would have t...

I rest my case with my hon. Friend: I believe that legislation currently provides the reassurance...

It may well be that the current legislation covers this eventuality, but the Government’s amendme...

I will happily cover amendment 34 in a moment. Indeed, perhaps I should speak to that amendment b...

That is exactly the difference between decentralisation and devolution. This proposal is the Secr...

The interventions must be shorter, as I still have to get the Front Bencher in.

The hon. Gentleman is coming at this from the wrong point of view. He is coming at it from the po...

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I will give way one last time, but then I must finish dealing with the rest of the clauses.

The Secretary of State may be doing the right thing—I am sure he would be, just as I am sure the ...

Let me turn to the independent panel idea in amendment 60, which the hon. Gentleman has tabled. T...

If a local authority, which understands its own demography—it knows its people and its inner-city...

It is not about the centre not liking the decision. The Secretary of State has statutory duties t...

I want to support new clause 12, although the Minister has made his case for turning it down. I t...

I want to make it very clear, and this might be helpful to the hon. Lady, that after the Minister...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention.

Although I see a range of possible potent...

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

9 pm

De...

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I would like to thank—[Interruptio...

Order. The Secretary of State is moving the Third Reading.

I thank all hon. Members from both sides of the House who have contributed to the development of ...

Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that amendment 56 will not be used by the G...

I will indeed. My hon. Friend raises an important point. The whole process by which we have opera...

The Secretary of State, as usual, is handling difficult issues in a consensual and careful way. A...

All of our negotiations have achieved consensus locally. That is my approach. Amendment 56 allows...

Like many on the Government Benches, I praise my right hon. Friend for all his work bringing the ...

I can certainly give that assurance to my hon. Friend, who has played an active role in talking t...

The Bill is clearly a milestone in the direction of devolution, and we welcome the spirit in whic...

I said on Second Reading that I supported the general principles of the Bill and its underlying i...

I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the thoughtful way in which he responded ...