UK Parliament / Open data

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 4 November 2013, in the House of Commons, led by David Gauke. The answering member was Shabana Mahmood.
Second reading. Agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Public Bill Committee, consideration and third reading and other proceedings. Agreed to on question. Ways and means resolution. Agreed to on question.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

570 cc36-81 

Session

2013-14

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Second reading

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber
National Insurance Contributions Bill 2013-14
Monday, 14 October 2013
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

David Gauke | 570 c37 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill underlines this Government...

John Redwood | 570 c37 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend think that it is possibly because they are embarrassed by that record that th...


Show all contributions (136)
David Gauke | 570 cc37-8 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a very good observation. I can rarely remember so few Labour Members b...

Guy Opperman | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

I accept entirely that the Minister cannot give specifics on the number of jobs the Bill will cre...

David Gauke | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

That is a similar point, and, as I say, I am nervous about giving precise numbers. Of the FSB res...

Margot James | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend mentions the welcome for this Bill from the FSB. Is he aware that charities and so...

David Gauke | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. She makes an important point that app...

Charlie Elphicke | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the measure was the largest tax cut in the Budget? Does he there...

David Gauke | 570 c38 (Link to this contribution)

Another observation one could make is that there are no Labour Members of Parliament here because...

Julie Hilling | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way. Has he considered the fact that there are only a few Labour ...

David Gauke | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

That, too, is a theory, but I am not sure that it is necessarily persuasive. When we fought the p...

Christopher Pincher | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

While the Labour Whips hunt for a seventh dwarf—

Christopher Pincher | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am definitely Bashful. Cheeky is probably on the other side of the House.

Does my hon...

David Gauke | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to hear of the experience in Tamworth, and my hon. Friend is right to raise that po...

Anne Marie Morris | 570 c39 (Link to this contribution)

Following on from the earlier point about confidence, does the Minister agree that, although all ...

David Gauke | 570 cc39-40 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I pay tribute to the work that she does on the all-part...

Jonathan Edwards | 570 c40 (Link to this contribution)

In the emergency Budget that followed the last Westminster election, the Treasury said that it wa...

David Gauke | 570 c40 (Link to this contribution)

No, not at all. There is a whole host of measures, including the regional growth fund, and there ...

Brooks Newmark | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) made a good point about rebala...

David Gauke | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

The striking point about the most recent growth numbers is that they demonstrate growth in every ...

Charlie Elphicke | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

While hesitating to introduce any controversy into the debate, does my hon. Friend agree that the...

David Gauke | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

I do agree. Given that we want to increase employment, it would not have been sensible to underta...

David Gauke | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

Whether all four of us will agree, I wait impatiently to find out.

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister explain how a measure that was not actually implemented destroyed jobs, as the h...

David Gauke | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

To have implemented the policy we inherited would have destroyed jobs. It did not do businesses i...

Margot James | 570 c41 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the reason the previous Government proposed the ridiculous increas...

David Gauke | 570 c42 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point that is well worth highlighting. When running a deficit of ...

Edward Leigh | 570 c42 (Link to this contribution)

What business hates more than anything else is the complexity of the tax system. We still have on...

David Gauke | 570 c42 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill will result in a big simplification for 450,000 businesses, because they will no longer ...

Julian Smith | 570 c42 (Link to this contribution)

One of the concerns that small businesses had about the national insurance holiday—which was an e...

David Gauke | 570 cc42-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I want to turn to the employers’ national insurance contributi...

Chris Leslie | 570 c43 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Gauke | 570 c43 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, whom I congratulate on his elevation to the shadow Cabinet.

...
Chris Leslie | 570 c43 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Exchequer Secretary and I also welcome the new additions to the Government F...

David Gauke | 570 c43 (Link to this contribution)

If I remember correctly, that was in autumn 2010, when the next leader of the Labour party was sa...

Margot James | 570 c43 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is being exceedingly generous in giving way. Does he agree that the Opposition’s l...

David Gauke | 570 c44 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes two valuable points, but I detect that you do not want me to dwell on the is...

Nick de Bois | 570 c44 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has talked about wages. Interestingly, the Federation of Small Businesses has said t...

David Gauke | 570 c44 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is worth bearing it in mind that tax plays an important ro...

Julian Smith | 570 c44 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister confirm that he will take no lessons from the Labour party, because during the ...

David Gauke | 570 cc44-5 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right. The policy of providing a NICs break only for new employees raised all s...

Richard Fuller | 570 c45 (Link to this contribution)

I greatly appreciate the Minister giving way. Before he sits down, will he or one of his colleagu...

David Gauke | 570 cc45-6 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that observation, and we will of course take a cautious estim...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c46 (Link to this contribution)

I salute the Minister’s valiant effort to gloss over recent history and his record. I can tell Go...

Nick de Bois | 570 c46 (Link to this contribution)

Given the Opposition’s dreadful predictions about how many jobs would be lost under the Governmen...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 cc46-7 (Link to this contribution)

That was a valiant effort to change the subject, but today we are talking about this Minister’s r...

Richard Fuller | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is making some fair criticism of the national insurance holiday, but does she agree...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, but there were many other problems with the national insur...

Ian Swales | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

As we are having a national insurance history lesson, what does the hon. Lady think the impact wo...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I prefer to look at the record. When the Go...

David Rutley | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

The new version of events on the Government’s legacy is interesting. We received a dismal legacy....

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that an economy that was growing was a bad legacy to leave. The legacy of three wa...

Jonathan Edwards | 570 c47 (Link to this contribution)

The key point about the national insurance measure in the emergency Budget was that it was a stat...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 cc47-8 (Link to this contribution)

We have been speaking a great deal about rebalancing the economy and our proposals on regional ba...

David Mowat | 570 c48 (Link to this contribution)

A few moments ago, the shadow Minister was asked a question on regional focus. She has also said ...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c49 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is somewhat confused. As was pointed out earlier, we always said that one of t...

Richard Fuller | 570 c49 (Link to this contribution)

I am delighted to hear the hon. Lady talk about the virtues of expanding reductions in national i...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c49 (Link to this contribution)

I was proud to stand as a Labour candidate at the general election when the economy was starting ...

David Gauke | 570 c49 (Link to this contribution)

I note that the hon. Lady did not respond to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bedf...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 c49 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for that intervention. I am not surprised he wants to turn the attention awa...

Julian Smith | 570 c50 (Link to this contribution)

This is a highly depressing speech. Should we not all be celebrating the fact that the economy is...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 cc50-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is so depressed that his Government’s policy has failed, but t...

Julian Smith | 570 c51 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Lady regret the Labour Government’s failure, over 13 years, to take the anti-tax av...

Shabana Mahmood | 570 cc51-2 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely reject the hon. Gentleman’s point. We have a very good record on tackling tax avoida...

Ian Swales | 570 c52 (Link to this contribution)

I warmly welcome the proposals in the Bill. We have already heard the statistics on its impact, i...

Jonathan Edwards | 570 c52 (Link to this contribution)

How much of the annual tax gap does the hon. Gentleman think this measure will tackle?

Ian Swales | 570 cc52-3 (Link to this contribution)

Very little. We heard from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) that the me...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c53 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). As so often when members of h...

Caroline Dinenage | 570 c53 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I can understand why she would not want anybody to...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c54 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but I am certainly not going to say that many of my c...

Ian Swales | 570 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Lady happy about the fact that she stood on a manifesto which included a national ins...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 cc54-6 (Link to this contribution)

We do not know that that policy would have taken jobs out of the economy, because we did not have...

Margot James | 570 cc55-7 (Link to this contribution)

Before I come to my main points about this Bill, which I support, I would just like to follow on ...

Julian Smith | 570 c57 (Link to this contribution)

May I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work she has done to promote UKTI’s merits to MPs acr...

Margot James | 570 c57 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind contribution and for his wholehearted support of that work on...

Ian Swales | 570 c57 (Link to this contribution)

May I add my tribute to my hon. Friend for playing a role in this exercise? My constituency offic...

Margot James | 570 cc57-8 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Indeed, what he has observed might explain why Brit...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c58 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not in fact the case that the incoming Government put taxes up? In particular, they put up ...

Margot James | 570 c58 (Link to this contribution)

I would apologise if I felt that I had said that no taxes had gone up. Let me clarify in response...

Richard Fuller | 570 cc58-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is truly a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), ...

Richard Fuller | 570 c59 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a second; I would love to hear from the hon. Lady.

Underpinning that sys...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c59 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the intention behind tax credits was indeed to encourage peop...

Richard Fuller | 570 c59 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes a point, but not a particularly good one. If the economy was borrowing so muc...

Richard Fuller | 570 c59 (Link to this contribution)

That is the bigger picture to which I guess the hon. Lady wishes to return, as she is one of, I t...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c59 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again and being so generous with his time. That myth ab...

Richard Fuller | 570 c60 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is digressing significantly from the Bill to talk about 1945, but in any debate I a...

Baroness Primarolo | 570 c60 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I have allowed the hon. Gentleman to range quite widely, but his comments must relate not ...

Richard Fuller | 570 cc60-1 (Link to this contribution)

You read my mind, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall return directly to the implications of the measur...

Caroline Dinenage | 570 c61 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate, and to follow such an array ...

Julian Smith | 570 c61 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that not only is this an exciting proposal overall, but the fact that s...

Caroline Dinenage | 570 c62 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a key point. The fact that the measure is open to charities and social enter...

Caroline Dinenage | 570 cc62-3 (Link to this contribution)

And their family. I am pleased that the Bill makes that moment so much more likely. There are man...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c63 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Lady accept that the rate of employment has not yet reached the level it had reache...

Caroline Dinenage | 570 c63 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady can throw facts and figures around as much as she likes, but unemployment was so hi...

Julian Smith | 570 cc63-4 (Link to this contribution)

Because I lost a contact lens on the tube, Madam Deputy Speaker, I can see you but unfortunately ...

David Rutley | 570 c64 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a characteristically impassioned speech on behalf of small businesses an...

Julian Smith | 570 cc64-5 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a characteristically good point. I seem to remember that they signed up to m...

David Rutley | 570 cc65-6 (Link to this contribution)

It is an honour and a privilege to follow the impassioned speech of my hon. Friend the Member for...

Bob Stewart | 570 c66 (Link to this contribution)

I endorse my hon. Friend’s last point. It is clear that if the boss of a business works closely w...

David Rutley | 570 cc66-7 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is absolutely the case. This is about how we build ...

Julian Smith | 570 c67 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way in his excellent speech. Does he agree that one of the most...

David Rutley | 570 c68 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely; there is a responsibility on all Members to do that. It is disappointing how few Oppo...

Damian Collins | 570 cc68-9 (Link to this contribution)

I will say a few words in support of the Bill. Like all Government Members, I believe that this i...

Bob Stewart | 570 c69 (Link to this contribution)

I have listened carefully to this debate. I have never run a small business; I have run a medium-...

Damian Collins | 570 c69 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The quality of the advice to businesses from all quarter...

Julian Smith | 570 c69 (Link to this contribution)

I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend has done within our party for a number of years to ...

Damian Collins | 570 cc69-71 (Link to this contribution)

It is very kind of my hon. Friend to make those remarks. The start-up hub competition at the Cons...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c71 (Link to this contribution)

I believe this is my first opportunity to congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your new rol...

Julian Smith | 570 c71 (Link to this contribution)

As well as exchanging pleasantries and niceties, will the hon. Lady commit now to backing the Gov...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c72 (Link to this contribution)

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman raises that point, because the Opposition will set out ...

Richard Fuller | 570 c72 (Link to this contribution)

Before the hon. Lady casts our minds back to 2011, may I ask her the question I asked her hon. Fr...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 cc72-3 (Link to this contribution)

I will repeat the words of my hon. Friend, who said that she was proud to stand in 2010 on a mani...

Julian Smith | 570 c73 (Link to this contribution)

Was the context at the time that the Labour party had left the nation’s finances in the most appa...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c73 (Link to this contribution)

Once again, Government Members want to airbrush the past three years of stagnation, lack of econo...

David Rutley | 570 c73 (Link to this contribution)

In the spirit of not wanting to airbrush, will the hon. Lady tell the House how she thinks the jo...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 cc73-4 (Link to this contribution)

Coalition Back Benchers want to forget what the Government have done and the past three years of ...

Margot James | 570 c74 (Link to this contribution)

This might be a foreign notion to Labour Members, but one reason why it has taken three years to ...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c74 (Link to this contribution)

The budget for the policy in the Bill was there, but the Government introduced a failing policy t...

Julian Smith | 570 c74 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Lady confirm that, having supported the Bill, she will call on all Labour MPs to pr...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 cc74-6 (Link to this contribution)

The Opposition support the legislation and it will pass unopposed this evening. It is rightly up ...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 cc76-8 (Link to this contribution)

This has been a wide-ranging debate and I am grateful to have heard all the thoughtful contributi...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c78 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for responding to some of the questions that I raised. She seems to be movin...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 cc78-9 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I should repeat my comments. This Government should get enormous credit for introducing a...

Sheila Gilmore | 570 c79 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister reflect on the fact that many households are worse off as a result of the Gover...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 cc79-80 (Link to this contribution)

Of course the Government recognise that living standards are under pressure and that household bu...

Ian Swales | 570 c80 (Link to this contribution)

I warmly welcome that simplicity. Does the Minister regret, as I do, the previous Government’s pr...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 c80 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend’s intervention says it all. Government Members have run small businesses and know ...

Catherine McKinnell | 570 c80 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is making a powerful argument, but it leads to the question: why did the Government ...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 c80 (Link to this contribution)

We heard earlier on that that was a time for a temporary target. We were dealing with the deficit...

Andrea Leadsom | 570 c80 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend find it as amazing as I do that Opposition Members can only snipe at schemes ...

Baroness Morgan of Cotes | 570 cc80-1 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right: that is exactly what our economy needs. I have been at the Dispatch Box ...

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