Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords report stage third day.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
736 c69-148Session
2010-12Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As amended in committee.
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Constitution Select Committee (HL) twenty-first report on Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bach | 736 c92-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the House will remember that we had a robust debate on this issue in Committee and some va...
Lord Bach | 736 c92 (Link to this contribution)
74C: Schedule 1, page 141, line 3, at end insert—
““Unfair dismissal
1 (1) Civil legal services prov...
Show all contributions (136)
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 736 c88-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for her contribution to this debate and for sha...
Lord McNally | 736 c86-8 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, was always known for his impetuosity.
I pay tribute to the nobl...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 736 c95 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have spoken on this issue several times in the course of the discussion on the Bill. I s...
Lord Faulks | 736 c95 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as a young barrister I had quite a lot of experience of going to employment tribunals. It ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 736 c94-5 (Link to this contribution)
I follow my noble friend on this issue. I apologise for confusing the amendments in the previous deb...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c78-80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, as indicated by many contributors to thi...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 736 c77-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have listened with interest to this debate as a lay person who has not been much engaged...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c80-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are not proposing to abandon the regime. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, pointed out, imm...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 736 c80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that part of the reason for introducing the Office of the Im...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 736 c84 (Link to this contribution)
74A: Schedule 1, page 141, line 3, at end insert—
““Debt management and relief or remedy
Civil legal...
Lord Bach | 736 c81 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in this important debate, and not least to...
Baroness Coussins | 736 c85-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support Amendments 74A and 74B, to which my name has been added. I declare an interest a...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 736 c84-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 74A and 74B about legal aid for debt, and in so doing I decl...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 736 c86 (Link to this contribution)
I will not follow the noble Baroness because she made an unanswerable case. I support her 100 per ce...
Lord Borrie | 736 c75 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if the House was today being given a choice between the amendment proposed by my noble fri...
Baroness Hamwee | 736 c74-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like others, I have been aware of the paradox that some senior lawyers have commented on t...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 736 c73-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall concentrate on the issue of trafficking, which noble Lords will have heard me ment...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 736 c72-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly and almost reluctantly, because, having been rather rebell...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 736 c72 (Link to this contribution)
I will not detain the House for long, but recall only too well the situation posed when I was an MP ...
Lord Pannick | 736 c71-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment. I am concerned that in the Minister's letter dated 1 March to all...
Lord Bach | 736 c69-71 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, at 29 minutes to seven of the evening, I move my Amendment 74, and it is a great pleasure ...
Lord Bach | 736 c69 (Link to this contribution)
74: Schedule 1, page 140, line 8, leave out from ““Kingdom”” to end of line 39
Lord Woolf | 736 c75-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, rightly, we have heard a lot about victims so far in this debate and, if this amendment is...
Lord Judd | 736 c76 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has reminded us very powerfully of the damage that can be done ...
Lord Avebury | 736 c77 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may mention one point which has not been raised so far. I refer to the effect of...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c147-8 (Link to this contribution)
I think it was Champerty rather than maintenance where a third party takes a chunk of the damages th...
Lord McNally | 736 c145-7 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord did say that we were allowed to change our mind.
The power at subsection (3) is not ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c145 (Link to this contribution)
That was a quick decision, if I may respectfully say so.
Lord McNally | 736 c145 (Link to this contribution)
It will remain negative.
Lord McNally | 736 c148 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, for the last time I make a solemn promise to the House that I covered the amendment in a l...
Lord McNally | 736 c148 (Link to this contribution)
118: Clause 25, page 21, line 3, at end insert—
““(6A) Regulations may provide that an individual is...
Lord McNally | 736 c148 (Link to this contribution)
109: Clause 24, page 19, line 18, leave out ““for”” and insert ““to””
110: Clause 24, page 19, lin...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 736 c134 (Link to this contribution)
101A: After Clause 11, insert the following new Clause—
““Report reviewing claims for clinical negli...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c136-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 101A seeks to provide for the possibility of a wholesale independent review of c...
Lord Bach | 736 c136 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, and his co-signatories have...
Lord Beecham | 736 c132 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is a straightforward amendment that deals with the question of creating a right of ap...
Lord Beecham | 736 c133 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if there is no intention at any stage to provide for appeals to a court, tribunal or other...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c133 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has indicated, the amendment would require regulations to...
Lord Bach | 736 c137 (Link to this contribution)
102: Clause 12, page 8, line 35, leave out subsection (2)
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 736 c137 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, to say that I am disappointed in that response is, I am afraid, an inadequate estimate. Th...
Lord Bach | 736 c137-8 (Link to this contribution)
I can be fairly brief here, as the Minister made an important concession in Committee by saying that...
Lord Bach | 736 c140 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendme...
Lord McNally | 736 c140 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think it would worry me as well. I will reflect on what the noble Lord has said and writ...
Lord Bach | 736 c140 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, given the time of night, I will obviously withdraw the amendment. I thank the Minister for...
Lord McNally | 736 c139 (Link to this contribution)
I take the point entirely. I will try again to say that Amendment 103 fulfils the commitment that I ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c139 (Link to this contribution)
Would the Minister acknowledge that it does not necessarily follow that he has to speak for 17 or 25...
Lord Bach | 736 c138 (Link to this contribution)
Was that the incredibly persuasive speech that lasted 11 lines before the Minister interrupted his n...
Lord McNally | 736 c138 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will try to help the noble Lord. I do not think there is anything sinister in this, and ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c140 (Link to this contribution)
105A: Clause 20, page 15, line 14, at end insert—
““( ) For the purposes of subsection (1), ““financ...
Lord McNally | 736 c140 (Link to this contribution)
103: Clause 12, page 8, line 37, leave out subsection (3)
104: Clause 12, page 9, line 26, at end ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c141 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 105A is in substitution for Amendment 105, which was drafted in identical terms ...
Lord McNally | 736 c116-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 90 would have the effect of making legal aid available for services to support s...
Lord McNally | 736 c118 (Link to this contribution)
91: Schedule 1, page 148, leave out lines 38 and 39 and insert ““, except as follows—
(a) those serv...
Lord Beecham | 736 c118 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord will expect me to express my disappointment at that conclusion, in my understanding o...
Lord McNally | 736 c118 (Link to this contribution)
92: Schedule 1, page 150, line 2, leave out ““paragraph 25”” and insert ““paragraphs 25 or 25A””.
A...
Lord McNally | 736 c118 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, again, this is a technical amendment, of which I sent noble Lords details. It is a minor t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c118-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have finally clawed our way out of Schedule 1 and back into the body of the Bill to mee...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c118 (Link to this contribution)
93: Clause 9, page 6, line 20, at end insert ““, or
““(c) that it is in the interest of justice gene...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 736 c122-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment, as well as Amendments 93A and 94, particularly in relation to imm...
Lord Avebury | 736 c119-22 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, when we were discussing the first amendment this afternoon it was said that some immigrati...
Lord Judd | 736 c123-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this debate relates to one that we had earlier, when there was that magnificent and to be ...
Lord Bach | 736 c125-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is absurd that we are debating such a crucial set of amendments as this at 10.15 in the...
Baroness Hamwee | 736 c124-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support, in particular, Amendment 93, to which my noble friend Lord Thomas has spoken. N...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c131-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, one of the comforting sayings at the Bar, which I have found over 50 years to be absolutel...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c131 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness acknowledged that I referred to some of the issues about unaccompanied children, ...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 736 c131 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, on unaccompanied children, I accept the point that social workers will not be expected to ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c126-31 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, notwithstanding the hour—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach—I agree with him that t...
Lord Beecham | 736 c132 (Link to this contribution)
100: Clause 11, page 8, line 25, leave out ““may”” and insert ““must””
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c132 (Link to this contribution)
99: Clause 10, page 7, line 30, after second ““the”” insert ““form of””
Amendment 99 agreed.
Claus...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c132 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is another minor and technical amendment designed to correct a drafting inconsistency...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c132 (Link to this contribution)
98: Clause 10, page 7, line 29, leave out from ““which”” to ““could”” and insert ““more than one for...
Lord McNally | 736 c114 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is a technical amendment to the drafting of paragraph 40 in Part 1 of Schedule 1. I h...
Lord McNally | 736 c114 (Link to this contribution)
81: Schedule 1, page 147, line 36, after ““to”” insert ““a claim in tort in respect of””
82: Sched...
Lord McNally | 736 c114 (Link to this contribution)
86: Schedule 1, page 148, line 8, leave out from beginning to second ““a””
Lord McNally | 736 c113 (Link to this contribution)
79: Schedule 1, page 147, line 18, at end insert—
““Terrorism prevention and investigation measures ...
Lord McNally | 736 c113 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, with this amendment we intend to extend the scope of civil legal aid in Schedule 1 to incl...
Lord Beecham | 736 c113-4 (Link to this contribution)
Without prejudice to one's views about the change from control orders to TPIMs, I can give an unqual...
Lord McNally | 736 c114 (Link to this contribution)
80: Schedule 1, page 147, line 25, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert—
““(a) the exclusions...
Lord Bach | 736 c108-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we agree with the amendments in this group. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, sa...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c109-12 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Avebury explained in moving this amendment, Amendments 77A, 77B, 7...
Lord Avebury | 736 c112-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Whitaker and Lady Turner, for their contr...
Lord Beecham | 736 c116 (Link to this contribution)
90: Schedule 1, page 148, line 32, leave out paragraph 16
Lord Beecham | 736 c116 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, when we considered this issue in Committee, I pointed out that the scheme for criminal inj...
Lord McNally | 736 c116 (Link to this contribution)
87: Schedule 1, page 148, line 9, leave out ““the authority”” and insert ““a public authority to the...
Lord Bach | 736 c116 (Link to this contribution)
88: Schedule 1, page 148, line 23, leave out paragraph 15
Amendment 88 agreed.
Amendment 89 not mo...
Baroness Hamwee | 736 c115 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, shall read the Minister's reply with interest. Is he satisfied that there would not be other...
Lord McNally | 736 c115-6 (Link to this contribution)
I think that we can all reflect. I will respond to my noble friend after such reflection.
Amendment...
Lord McNally | 736 c115 (Link to this contribution)
No, I fully appreciate the noble Lord's position. We are aware that the current wording in paragraph...
Lord Beecham | 736 c115 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Lord.
Lord McNally | 736 c114 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 86 and 87 are technical amendments to the drafting of the exclusion for damages...
Lord Beecham | 736 c114-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hesitate to ask for a longer explanation, but perhaps a slightly longer explanation woul...
Lord Bach | 736 c96-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, once again I thank noble Lords who have spoken with a lot of knowledge in this debate. It ...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c97 (Link to this contribution)
On that point, does the noble Lord agree that government departments and health services all turn up...
Lord Bach | 736 c97 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is absolutely right; that is the thinking behind it. The same Government who say that...
Lord McNally | 736 c97-8 (Link to this contribution)
I actually spoke in favour of that resolution because, as we have been debating for some months now,...
Lord Bach | 736 c98 (Link to this contribution)
I am much obliged to the Minister. He supported, then: "““A properly funded system whereby access to...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 736 c98 (Link to this contribution)
Is it not quite usual for the Minister to stand on his head?
Lord Bach | 736 c98 (Link to this contribution)
A few months ago I would have said no; now I am not quite sure. I just find it incredible that the G...
Lord Best | 736 c98 (Link to this contribution)
75: Schedule 1, page 141, line 7, at end insert
““(1A) Services provided to an individual at risk of...
Lord McNally | 736 c96 (Link to this contribution)
On the point that the noble Baroness has just made, I for one would certainly not be worried if the ...
Lord Best | 736 c98-100 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 76 and 77 are consequential on Amendment 75. Amendment 75 relates to legal aid ...
Lord McNally | 736 c104 (Link to this contribution)
I will consider that matter, but quite honestly, during the passage not just of this Bill but of eve...
Lord Best | 736 c104-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for his support. Certainly council tax bene...
Lord McNally | 736 c103-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I listened with care to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Best, on matters concerning hous...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 736 c104 (Link to this contribution)
Will the noble Lord be kind enough to write to us with a detailed refutation of the specific figures...
Baroness Whitaker | 736 c107-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for the fact that my voice has not kept up with the strength of my convictions...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 736 c108 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support these amendments. I do not want to add anything to the very detailed case alread...
Lord Avebury | 736 c105 (Link to this contribution)
77A: Schedule 1, page 141, line 44, leave out ““subject to sub-paragraph (10)””
Lord Avebury | 736 c105-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 77B to 77D, and after that my noble friend will probably ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 736 c100-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I fully endorse the amendment proposed by the noble Lord and will add just two points for ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c101-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Best, I have the benefit of having received a briefing from Shel...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c143 (Link to this contribution)
108: Clause 22, page 17, line 41, at end insert ““save that an individual shall not be required to p...
Lord McNally | 736 c143 (Link to this contribution)
107: Clause 22, page 17, line 27, leave out ““for”” and insert ““to””
Amendment 107 agreed.
Amendm...
Lord McNally | 736 c143 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it takes a certain amount of, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, chutzpah—although I d...
Lord Bach | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have déjà vu. We had this same exchange in Committee and I repeat what I think I said th...
Lord McNally | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, but there is some kind of responsibility for past acts. It is all right for the noble Lord to g...
Lord Bach | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we give our total support to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresfor...
Lord McNally | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot remember whether the noble Lord was a Minister in the department responsible in 2002, becau...
Lord McNally | 736 c143 (Link to this contribution)
106: Clause 20, page 15, line 22, leave out ““The regulations”” and insert ““Regulations under subse...
Lord Bach | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
Again, I have déjà vu. I think I ate enough sack cloth and ashes, or whatever the expression is, on ...
Lord McNally | 736 c142 (Link to this contribution)
Excellent; that was good for the record. Amendment 105A would amend the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c143-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I move the amendment in a probing manner. I am concerned about a statement made by the nob...
Lord Beecham | 736 c144 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is another case of déjà vu. In Committee, I congratulated the noble Lord, Lord Thomas...
Lord McNally | 736 c144 (Link to this contribution)
Yet again the Opposition, with a completely straight face, agree with my noble friend, although, as ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c144 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend will confirm that from time to time I, in particular, was extremely critical of some...
Lord McNally | 736 c144 (Link to this contribution)
Is another noble Lord going to have a go? Is there to be more sackcloth and ashes?
Lord Bach | 736 c145 (Link to this contribution)
Not at all. It is late at night, so I think we can forgive the Minister what he considers to be his ...
Lord McNally | 736 c145 (Link to this contribution)
Very good. On the specific issue at hand, we hope to bring in the scheme with the rest of the Bill i...
Lord McNally | 736 c148 (Link to this contribution)
112: Clause 25, page 20, line 20, leave out ““for”” and insert ““to””
113: Clause 25, page 20, lin...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 736 c134-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am supported in this amendment by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and my noble f...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c143 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for saying that, and I am pleased that there are inv...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c145 (Link to this contribution)
It is negative in the Bill. My amendment would make it affirmative.
Lord McNally | 736 c138 (Link to this contribution)
I think that it lasted under 30 seconds, and what I was trying to draw to the attention of the House...
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