Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords report stage second day.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
735 c1781-851, 1865-92Session
2010-12Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As amended in committee.
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Constitution Select Committee (HL) twenty-first report on Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Doocey | 735 c1782 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment is almost identical in scope to the one moved in the other place by the right honoura...
Baroness Doocey | 735 c1782-3 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment concerns the proposals in the Bill to remove legal aid for appeals against official de...
Show all contributions (138)
Baroness Garden of Frognal | 735 c1782 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to my noble friend but it is very difficult to hear what she is saying. I invite noble L...
Baroness Doocey | 735 c1781-2 (Link to this contribution)
11: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Social welfare law
(1) Civil legal services provi...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1790-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree with other speakers that during the passage of the Bill we have heard many heart-w...
Baroness Benjamin | 735 c1791-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 46, which would maintain legal aid for all children. I tha...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1787-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have heard admirable and powerful speeches. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, said that he w...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 735 c1789-90 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am a signatory to Amendment 12. I am very happy to support the sentiments expressed by t...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1783-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is to the amendment, along with those of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Ba...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c1785-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in the background to the undoubted need to cut legal aid for economic reasons, it is undou...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1881 (Link to this contribution)
41: Schedule 1, page 130, leave out lines 42 to 45 and insert—
““““abuse”” means any incident or rep...
Lord McNally | 735 c1881 (Link to this contribution)
40: Schedule 1, page 130, leave out lines 42 to 45
Amendment 40 agreed.
Amendment 41
Moved by
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1881-2 (Link to this contribution)
43: Schedule 1, page 131, line 31, at end insert—
““( ) For the purposes of this paragraph, evidence...
Lord McNally | 735 c1881 (Link to this contribution)
42: Schedule 1, page 131, line 1, at end insert—
““““domestic violence”” means threatening behaviour...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1879-80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as she has indicated, the amendments moved and spoken to by the noble and learned Baroness...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1878-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment gives me a sense of déjà vu. More than 30 years ago, I acted for a father w...
Lord McNally | 735 c1880-1 (Link to this contribution)
37: Schedule 1, page 130, leave out line 11 and insert ““—
(a) there has been, or is a risk of, dome...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1882 (Link to this contribution)
45: Schedule 1, page 133, line 3, at end insert—
““Exceptional family proceedings
(1) Civil legal se...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1887 (Link to this contribution)
69: Schedule 1, page 138, line 20, at end insert—
““Victim of trafficking of people for exploitation...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1885-7 (Link to this contribution)
50: Schedule 1, page 136, line 12, leave out ““a removal direction”” and insert ““removal directions...
Baroness Hamwee | 735 c1888-9 (Link to this contribution)
My name is to this amendment. The Minister in Committee referred to Clause 9 on exceptional case det...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1887-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I declare an interest as co-chairman of the human trafficking parliamentary group and as a...
Lord Bach | 735 c1889 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we continue to support this theme of amendments. There were two in Committee moved by the ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1890 (Link to this contribution)
70: Schedule 1, page 139, leave out line 20 and insert ““because I was the victim of domestic violen...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1890 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his very constructive and heart-warming words. ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1890-1 (Link to this contribution)
73: Schedule 1, page 140, line 5, at end insert—
““Immigration: victims of domestic violence and res...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1882 (Link to this contribution)
47: Schedule 1, page 135, line 31, at end insert—
““Best interests of patients
16A Civil legal servi...
Lord McNally | 735 c1883-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment seeks to insert a paragraph to provide legal aid for cases concerning whethe...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1883 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I supported the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, in Committee, and I do so again now. ...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1883 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I congratulated the noble Lord on moving this important amendment in Committee, where he r...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1883 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I moved this amendment in Committee. It is concerned with people who tragically are in a v...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1885 (Link to this contribution)
49: Schedule 1, page 136, line 4, leave out sub-paragraph (5) and insert—
““(5) The services describ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1884-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as has been said several times, the Government's intention is to retain legal aid for most...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1884 (Link to this contribution)
48: Schedule 1, page 135, line 38, leave out ““paragraph 15”” and insert ““paragraphs 1 to 5, 6, 8, ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1884 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendment. I am indeed disa...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1885 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord McNally has sent your Lordships details of a group of minor and techn...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 735 c1797 (Link to this contribution)
I strongly support Amendments 21 and 46, which have been eloquently spoken to, particularly with reg...
Lord Low of Dalston | 735 c1795-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not sure why we are discussing all these amendments in the same group as they seem to...
Bishop of Exeter | 735 c1799-801 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak as the father of a daughter with Down's syndrome, who over the years has had to fa...
Baroness Eaton | 735 c1798-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 46. As noble Lords know, this amendment seeks to protect a...
Viscount Slim | 735 c1802 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, one word has been left out of our discussions—““veteran””. I refer to veterans of all ages...
Lord Wigley | 735 c1801-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in Committee many speeches stressed the importance of securing accessibility to our justic...
Viscount Slim | 735 c1802 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you. My question is simply: have there been discussions between the Ministry of Justice and th...
Baroness Benjamin | 735 c1795 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister the following questions. Why is legal aid being wit...
Lord Shipley | 735 c1802-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 101. As we have heard, this group of amendments relates to two matter...
Lord McNally | 735 c1876 (Link to this contribution)
32: Schedule 1, page 128, line 30, at end insert—
““(ja) section 2 of the Carers and Disabled Childr...
Lord McNally | 735 c1877 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, stakeholders have drawn it to our attention that the definition of community care service ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1875-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to my noble friend for that reply. I ask him to add this point to his deliberatio...
Lord McNally | 735 c1876 (Link to this contribution)
24: Schedule 1, page 126, line 3, after ““to”” insert ““—
(a) ””
25: Schedule 1, page 126, line 4,...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1877 (Link to this contribution)
34: Schedule 1, page 129, line 13, after ““from”” insert ““or within””
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1877-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there are three amendments here that relate to internal child abduction. Noble Lords may w...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1877 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we welcome the Minister's amendments and are glad that an error has been repaired.
Amendm...
Lord McNally | 735 c1877 (Link to this contribution)
33: Schedule 1, page 129, line 2, at end insert—
““Facilities for disabled persons
6A (1) Civil lega...
Lord McNally | 735 c1816 (Link to this contribution)
No, I am not giving way. I am not giving way.
Lord Laming | 735 c1816 (Link to this contribution)
The House will realise that I rarely intervene in matters of this kind. In fact, I would go as far a...
Lord McNally | 735 c1816 (Link to this contribution)
Cross-Benchers are individuals who make up their own minds. I am entirely right to say that decision...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 735 c1823 (Link to this contribution)
13: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Clinical negligence
(1) Civil legal services prov...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 735 c1823-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we come to the first of a group of amendments dealing with clinical negligence. The noble ...
Baroness Doocey | 735 c1816-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords from every section of this House for their superb contribut...
Lord Bach | 735 c1820 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I spoke to this amendment in the last debate. I beg to move and test the opinion of the Ho...
Lord Cormack | 735 c1828-30 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. We entered another place on t...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 735 c1830 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, when the Bill was first published it led to a great deal of correspondence from all sorts ...
Baroness Eaton | 735 c1826-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords I ask noble Lords to support Amendment 31, which stands in my name and in the names of my n...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1828 (Link to this contribution)
I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, with temerity, as she has made a remarkable speech based on...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 735 c1825-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 15, which is in my name and in the names of the Baroness, Lady F...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 735 c1833 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in supporting the amendments, I just want to say that clinical negligence is such an impor...
Lord Wigley | 735 c1831-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of Amendment 13, proposed by the noble and learned Lord, ...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c1830-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I want to give my noble and learned friend the Advocate-General a brief moment of minister...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1831 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, welcome the concession that the Government propose in Amendment 68, in so far as i...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 735 c1803-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise briefly in support of Amendment 11 because I covered the appeal process extensively...
Lord Goldsmith | 735 c1804-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I raised in Committee the issue of the advice sector and advice agencies, about which the ...
Lord Cormack | 735 c1806 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for long. I do not suppose that a single Member of this ...
Lord Judd | 735 c1806 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, further to that very important point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, perhaps I ...
Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c1806 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Slim, I have one question to ask the Minister. I know that we di...
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia | 735 c1807 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak in support of the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Bu...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1807-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there is very little to add in what has been a remarkably unanimous debate—““Sit down””, s...
Lord Bach | 735 c1808-10 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to give my support, and that of my party, to Amendment 11, moved so brilliantly by the noble ...
Lord Avebury | 735 c1811 (Link to this contribution)
Will my noble friend allow me—
Lord McNally | 735 c1811 (Link to this contribution)
No. I have been here for two hours—
Lord McNally | 735 c1810-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if we have a debate about how we help the poor then it is bound to be emotive and emotiona...
Lord McNally | 735 c1815 (Link to this contribution)
Oh look, they are all waiting. It is the responsibility of Cross-Benchers, who supposedly, I am read...
Lord McNally | 735 c1811-5 (Link to this contribution)
And I have heard a lot. The House has to move on. We want to get through Schedule 1.
This is not a ...
Lord McNally | 735 c1815 (Link to this contribution)
No, I will not give way. Noble Lords have had a very good time. I have a right to point out that the...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1871 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to move the amendment so that I can make a brief statement on the subject.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1871 (Link to this contribution)
21: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Vulnerable young people
1 (1) Civil legal service...
Lord Faulks | 735 c1869 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I might intervene briefly on this matter. I have experienced quite a number of cas...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1868-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment deals with education. It is right to say that, having consulted—although pe...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1870 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, has made a valid point about education negligence cases. I th...
Lord McNally | 735 c1869-70 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 20 would bring back into scope all education matters not already covered by Sche...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1868 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord sits down, I may say that he is developing a very fine line in insulting jibes...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1867-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I remain disappointed in that response. There is potentially a huge range of claims that m...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1868 (Link to this contribution)
20: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Education
(1) Civil legal services provided in re...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1868 (Link to this contribution)
I do not quite understand the relevance of that observation. I mentioned Brown. I am sorry if it off...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1875 (Link to this contribution)
Is that on the basis of an assessment of how many cases a judge would declare complex? I propose a f...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1875 (Link to this contribution)
That is the point I was about to make. It is possibly based on the majority of cases currently going...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1874-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford would seek to provide legal...
Lord Bach | 735 c1874 (Link to this contribution)
Very briefly, we agree in principle with the noble Lord and his amendments. After today, the Bill wi...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1872-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 22 and Amendment 78 are concerned with appeals in social welfare and immigration...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
22: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Social entitlement
(1) Civil legal services and a...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 21 withdrawn.
Amendment 22
Moved by
Lord McNally | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
I am always delighted to see the noble Baroness and I will certainly meet her to discuss this furthe...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
Yes. I beg to move.
Lord Geddes | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
Having spoken to her amendment, does the noble Baroness wish to move it? That will give noble Lords ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1872 (Link to this contribution)
What I wanted to say is that I am of course sad that this amendment cannot be debated tomorrow or on...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1839-40 (Link to this contribution)
It would be extremely important if the Government acted on it. We do not know that they will. While ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1839 (Link to this contribution)
Although the organisation questions, it is hardly saying something that is contrary to what I have s...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1840 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, some nerve damage is being sustained by the noble Lord. Let us, however, concentrate on th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1840 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may point out to the noble Lord, and my noble friend the Minister will confirm this, that ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1833-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wonder whether I might be allowed to intervene from this Front Bench position without pe...
Lord Faulks | 735 c1834-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I take note of the indication from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that the House may hav...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1838-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before I address the amendments, I must correct something that I said in Committee. I unfo...
Baroness Hamwee | 735 c1838 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a short supplementary question following the queries made by my noble fr...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1867 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has moved his amendment to make civil legal services availab...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1866-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment would bring consumer law back into scope. Consumer law does not simply cover...
Lord Beecham | 735 c1866 (Link to this contribution)
19: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Consumer
(1) Civil legal services provided in res...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1844-5 (Link to this contribution)
It is very evident. We want to encourage joint expert reports, but clearly there will be cases when ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1844 (Link to this contribution)
If there is no consensus between the experts, what happens then?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1840-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think that it is evident to the House that we have had a very important, serious-minded ...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 735 c1848-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am very conscious of the late hour so I do not wish to delay your Lordships' House too much longer...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 735 c1848 (Link to this contribution)
15: Schedule 1, page 125, line 5, at end insert—
““Clinical negligence (No. 2)
(1) Civil legal servi...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 735 c1845-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I address only my own amendment. It is very limited in scope and is designed to save money...
Baroness Verma | 735 c1795 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that we are at Report stage. Points should be quite short and direc...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1880 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the Minister for what he has said, although it does not go quite as far as tho...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1882 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment, which, as I said, was rather oddly included in th...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1889-90 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 69 intends to bring into the scope of legal aid damages and compensation claims ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1892 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 92. This is another group of amendments on which my noble ...
Baroness Mallalieu | 735 c1832-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I intervene very briefly to go back to the first of the speeches on this group, which have...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1805-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I invite the House's attention to Amendment 45, which is rather oddly placed in this group...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 735 c1806-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may add a word to what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said. It seemed to me that ...
Lord Geddes | 735 c1871 (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Baroness has started to speak to her amendment, she must move it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1837-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Newton, wi...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c1833 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I sense that the House is getting to the point where this debate needs to draw to a close,...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 735 c1865-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I explain that there have been discussions b...
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