UK Parliament / Open data

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 5 March 2012, in the House of Lords.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords report stage first day.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

735 c1558-624, 1636-58

Session

2010-12

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 8, page 5, line 41, leave out ““omitting”” and insert ““adding””

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) In thanking my noble friends Lady Hollis and Lord Howarth for their support, perhaps I may reassure ...

Show all contributions (138)

Lord Beecham | 735 c1650 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a profoundly wise amendment, but nevertheless I beg leave to withdraw it. Amendment...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1651 (Link to this contribution) 7B: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent review: welfare reform and availa...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1649-50 (Link to this contribution) That certainly increases the case that I am rather lamely seeking to put forward. My noble friend is...

Lord McNally | 735 c1650 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me make it absolutely clear from the start that my spirits are lifted when I see the n...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 735 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I come in on an amendment that is rather dear to my ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to have an intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I he...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1651-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I trust that I have an equally wise amendment. For benefit recipients, their families, the...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1653-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been encouraged so fulsomely by the Minister that I rise to contribute briefly to t...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1648 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is being a little optimistic. I am sure he willingly accepts...

Lord McNally | 735 c1647 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Bach | 735 c1649 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend aware that a proportion of that 8 per cent is part of the cut that we made as we ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is a timely reminder of a potential major problem which already exists but ...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1642-3 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a great deal, and very helpfully, about the role of experts in family proceedings. I d...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1643-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to illustrate the usefulness of experts. This came from a case that I did thr...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1644-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we welcome this opportunity to consider the undoubted contribution that experts make by gi...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1646 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken in the debate for their contributions and, inde...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution) 7A: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Post-commencement review (1) Two years after ...

Lord Bach | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am conscious of the time. I would sooner that this amendment is left to Wednesday.

Lord Bach | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) It is only a question for me to decide whether to put my amendment to a vote, but I do not intend to...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will know that I have been urging this course upon him since the Bill was first draf...

Lord Bach | 735 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) I was not sure whether the Government were minded to adjourn the House now, it being 10 o'clock. Cla...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord does not move his amendment perhaps I may move my Amendment 10 in the same group.

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept the undertaking from the Minister.

Lord McNally | 735 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the principles underpinning this Bill include the need to establish very clearly the scope...

Lord McNally | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the House receives this Report, may we have an assurance from the Leader of the Hou...

Lord McNally | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) That the Report be now received. That the Report be now received.

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c1561-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I remain in support of the principle behind this a...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on this amendment. I support it for the reasons so admirably given by the noble...

Baroness Mallalieu | 735 c1562-3 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, I supported a very similar amendment, and I would like to support this one today....

Lord Pannick | 735 c1559 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out from ““secure”” to end of line 6 and insert ““(within the res...

Lord Strathclyde | 735 c1559 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I laid out the position at some length on Valentine's Day. The statement is recorded in Ha...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1560-1 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. When it was debated in Committee, the Minister said that he would reflect o...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1559-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, "““Access to justice is a fundamental part of a properly functioning democracy””." That w...

Lord Judd | 735 c1619 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, frankly, it beggars belief that in an area which involves so much social distress and suff...

Lord Goldsmith | 735 c1618-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. The principal reason for supporting the amendment that has been g...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1613 (Link to this contribution) 5: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Annual report (1) As soon as reasonably practi...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am certainly prepared to accept the assurances that the Minister has given. I beg leave ...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is again a perfectly simple amendment, and the Minister anticipated it in his reply t...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1616-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could tell us a little more about when the Government antici...

Baroness Prashar | 735 c1615-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment, which was so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. He moved i...

Lord Bach | 735 c1613-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we come back to a matter that we debated in Committee: the pre-commencement impact assessm...

Lord Bach | 735 c1613 (Link to this contribution) 6: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Pre-commencement impact assessment (1) The Lor...

Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 735 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I encourage the Minister to accept the amendment. I do not think for one moment that it cu...

Lord McNally | 735 c1620-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, where am I to begin? It is probably best to begin with the unknown unknowns. Government ca...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c1620 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to the amendment for one simple reason: it drew attention to impact assessme...

Lord McNally | 735 c1624 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord knows well, shortly before leaving office, he introduced cuts to crimina...

Lord Bach | 735 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply and what assurances he was able to give—not satisfact...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1636 (Link to this contribution) 7: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Expert evidence The Lord Chancellor must revie...

Lord Bach | 735 c1624 (Link to this contribution) They were, and they were opposed by the noble Lord, his party and other parties when we made them, b...

Earl of Listowel | 735 c1639-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Beecham—my name is attached to the amendment—and declare my...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1636-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as your Lordships will be aware, the Lord Chancellor hails from Nottingham. He adopts the ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1592 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I waited with bated breath to hear what the noble Lord said because I hoped that his remar...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Baroness accept that my noble friend Lord Macdonald tabled Amendment 39? ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1591 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in what the Minister is saying, but perhaps I might ask him to explain whether ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution) If I go on, all will become clear. We indicated the intended forms of evidence in consultation and ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I regret that I do not. Let me explain why. The framework included in our amendments is the framewor...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) It is the specificity of her amendment that I complain about because it puts into the Bill in stone ...

Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord knows what I was about say. We are on Report.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, although, of course, it is always a delight to do battle with the noble ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I did not want to interrupt the noble and learned Baroness's peroration, but for the assistance of t...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that helpful indication. I agree with him. I would argue that my amendmen...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1597 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must ensure that the terms on...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Faulks, a...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1598 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, said, and I should like to add just t...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also attached to the amendment, and I have very little to add to what has alrea...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1599-600 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I concur with everything that has been said. As time goes by the role of the director is l...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1600-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should also like to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hart of Chilton....

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree entirely with the points just made by my noble friend. The views of the legal prof...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord indicated that in his contribution to the debate. I am seeking to reassure noble Lord...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend always speaks with great persuasiveness, but I cannot see any point that...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1603-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, who it is clear wish to see ““...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) What advice did the Law Society and the Bar Council give to the Government about this particular pro...

Baroness Hamwee | 735 c1601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, comments have been made about perception, and perception is important in this context. I w...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1602 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on this occasion, as in Committee, the House has been treated to the observations of a ver...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree that the person would become a non-departmental public body in his or her own right. ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) We accept entirely and welcome that the Lord Chancellor will have no power to direct or even guide t...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1605-6 (Link to this contribution) In fairness to my noble friend, it is a good question, which I have asked myself. The answer, as I h...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I have a number of questions at this stage along with a mou...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that charming and beguiling presentation of the arguments that he seeks to ...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) 4: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) In this section ““Minister of the Crown”” has the...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) 4A: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) Before issuing guidance or directions under this...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a short and simple amendment. In replying to the last debate, the Minister indicat...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1606-7 (Link to this contribution) For example, guidance will be given under Clause 9 on exceptional funding, which could relate to cla...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may have noticed that I have kept quiet on this amendment until now, but I am genuinely...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness puts her finger on it, as she often does. Yes, it is to be a civil se...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if Amendment 4A were accepted, it would mean that directions and guidance issued by the Lo...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House has gone some distance in reinforcing the independence of the director, and I tr...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) 4B: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) Any guidance or directions issued under this sec...

Lord McNally | 735 c1571-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will probably continue for the next five days to make his debating points, but we are...

Lord Bach | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) How can it be justice to deprive legal aid from the poorest people in society who need advice on soc...

Lord McNally | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) It is not being denied; it is still there. However, in very difficult economic circumstances, we are...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) Of course. The whole legal aid system is based on that; you have to conform with certain priorities....

Lord McNally | 735 c1568-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me begin with the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. The wor...

Lord Bach | 735 c1568 (Link to this contribution) Indeed—I fully concede that; but I have to say that I do not concede the point that I am about to ma...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1568 (Link to this contribution) The comments were not said in the context of Amendment 1, and we will deal with the other matters wh...

Lord Bach | 735 c1567-8 (Link to this contribution) Not quite in the same terms. As I understood it, the noble Lord and some others in Committee opposed...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1567 (Link to this contribution) No, that is not the case. As the noble Lord will recall, I opposed this amendment in Committee in ve...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 735 c1572 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask my noble friend a question, as I am rather confused. To implement this question as...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) The amendment sums up precisely why so many of us entered the law in the first place. I will not tak...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that.

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am surprised to hear the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, suggest that the...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1563 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we shall look forward very much to hearing the noble Lord, Lord Newton, in a moment. This...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 735 c1564-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. The House will...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1563-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for my slowness. I start by saying that I am so far the only person who has sp...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1566-7 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that is putting it a little too high. However, ever since Magna Carta, access to justice has...

Lord Bach | 735 c1567 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is very little left for me to say from the opposition Front Bench, except that we ar...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1587 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I commend the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote. It seems to...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 735 c1586-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate but was moved to do so by not only my noble and...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1586 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments, as they show that noble Lords across the House recognise the a...

Lord Scott of Foscote | 735 c1585-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am fully supportive of the spirit behind these amendments. I rise simply to query a smal...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 735 c1590 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may answer that. I suggest that the Minister reads House of Commons Hansard to see what hi...

Lord McNally | 735 c1588-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in a way, this mirrors the previous debate, in that we are discussing how under the Bill w...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 735 c1583-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend's amendments. I shall concentrate my remarks on the particular d...

Bishop of Exeter | 735 c1582-3 (Link to this contribution) As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, indicated, my friend the right reverend Prelate th...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1582 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is certainly the case.

Lord Pannick | 735 c1573 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may disagree, but I take the view that because the Government now wish to specify areas...

Lord McNally | 735 c1573 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord not concede that the difference between this Bill and previous Bills is that pr...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1576-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic and Sexual...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1576 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end insert— ““( ) In exercising the duty under subsection (1), the L...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution) My name is on this amendment so perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, will permit me to s...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1580 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1582 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that I am not the only one who wonders about the point eloquently made by the noble and le...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1581-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 39 is in the names of my noble friend Lord Macdonald of River Glaven and me. I a...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1572-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in this important debate. I am also grateful to...

Lord McNally | 735 c1572 (Link to this contribution) As we continue to point out, it is being paid for by taxpayers via my right honourable friend the Ch...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1647 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be blessedly brief. The first of the two amendments in this group is the mirror ima...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1619-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I may add a brief word about law centres and other advice centres. Taking lega...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not accept that. I accept that it sets in stone the minimum criteria and that additio...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness—

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry that yet another lawyer is speaking, but I want to make a very brief point. In ...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I cannot quite make it. I shall try again later.

Bishop of Exeter | 735 c1562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, last week I was asked to give a lecture on perspectives on social justice from the Old Tes...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) Again, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has indicated that the purpose of his amendment is th...

Baroness Mallalieu | 735 c1599 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support both this amendment and the amendment that the Government have tabled. For reaso...

Lord McNally | 735 c1591 (Link to this contribution) The forms of evidence that will be accepted for this purpose are not set out in the Bill. Instead, o...

Subjects

Access

Disadvantaged

Benefits rules

Costs

Civil servants

Advisory services

Legal profession

Equality

Finance

Legal aid scheme

Domestic abuse

Legal Services Commission

Public appointments

Social security benefits

Sentencing

Expert evidence

Impact assessments

Lord Chancellor

Legislation

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12

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