Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords committee stage seventh day. Clauses 45 to 60 agreed to. Schedules 7 and 8 agreed to. Clause 61 under consideration.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Wednesday, 1 February 2012,
in the House of Lords.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
734 c1572-627, 1643-62Session
2010-12Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Wigley | 734 c1653-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in earlier debates on the Bill we discussed the need to ensure equality of arms before the...
Lord Dholakia | 734 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my Amendment 172C is grouped with Amendment 172A, among others. I agree very much with alm...
Show all contributions (109)
Lord Goldsmith | 734 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this group of amendments touches on a number of important issues. I have great sympathy wi...
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 734 c1647-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment would give all victims the right to be told about sentences passed in the co...
Baroness Quin | 734 c1649-51 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 172B is in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Wigley, and relat...
Lord Bach | 734 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is the first debate of many, I suspect, on Part 3. Part 3 is entitled ““Sentencing an...
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 734 c1662 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who supported my amendment, including my noble friend Lady Quin, my no...
Lord McNally | 734 c1645-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his intervention, and to the two noble Lor...
Lord Goldsmith | 734 c1646 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy that the noble Lord read them too.
Lord Goldsmith | 734 c1645 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, the Supreme Court—how outdated I am. To fill that gap would be very valuable. My underst...
Lord Bach | 734 c1645 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, very briefly, we support the amendment. The expression ““no brainer”” has been used on a n...
Lord McNally | 734 c1647 (Link to this contribution)
The wonderful thing about this House is that you get free legal advice. I will certainly take that b...
Lord Pannick | 734 c1647 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the Minister. I will of course withdraw the amendment. I am very grateful to t...
Lord McNally | 734 c1646 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Section 194 of the Legal Services Act 2007 allows courts to make an order for costs agains...
Lord Goldsmith | 734 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution)
One issue that we have looked at is whether it would be necessary to have any orders or consequentia...
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 734 c1647 (Link to this contribution)
172A: Clause 61, page 43, line 32, at end insert—
““(1A) The court may order that the prosecution sh...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1623 (Link to this contribution)
Does my noble friend not agree that in the instance that he described and in which he was involved t...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution)
There is certainly that possibility.
I wanted to add something else about hospitals. When I was a M...
Lord Bach | 734 c1624-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Committee seems to be at one in its attitude towards the amendments, and I include tho...
Lord McNally | 734 c1625-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if I am wrong I will write to the noble Lord, but I do not think it is our intention to mo...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c1627 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Apart from the metaphorical slap on the wrist at the ...
Lord Bach | 734 c1627 (Link to this contribution)
I say with the greatest respect to the noble Lord that of course I remember his comment on Lord Just...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c1627 (Link to this contribution)
It is very useful to explain it in that way.
I thank the Minister particularly for his sympathy for...
Lord Pannick | 734 c1643 (Link to this contribution)
171A: After Clause 58, insert the following new Clause—
““Payments in respect of pro bono representa...
Lord Pannick | 734 c1643-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 171A is surely the least controversial of all the many amendments to this Bill t...
Lord Goldsmith | 734 c1644-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I very much welcome this amendment and thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for having take...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1618 (Link to this contribution)
Not all firms are large firms, and it will not surprise Members to know that my firm was not—and is ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1617-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before the noble Lord does what he is going to do with his amendment, I just make one comm...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1618-9 (Link to this contribution)
I can see a case for regulating the fees. I am not an enthusiast for alternative business structures...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c1618 (Link to this contribution)
In the new, highly commercial context within which soliciting is carried on today, and in an era whe...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1618 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think it is necessary to confine the payment to precisely the basis that the noble Lord ide...
Lord McNally | 734 c1618 (Link to this contribution)
I ask the noble Lord to read Hansard tomorrow. We have made it extremely clear that we do not think ...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 734 c1615 (Link to this contribution)
I may have failed to declare an interest in that I am a member of Unite. It used to be the metalwork...
Lord McNally | 734 c1615-6 (Link to this contribution)
It might. Some of them sound like coffee bars rather than trade unions these days, but perhaps that ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 734 c1615 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if there is a depletion of funds of charities such as the one that I described today, are ...
Lord McNally | 734 c1615 (Link to this contribution)
No, of course the Government cannot do that. There was one thing that I was interested in. I do not ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1616-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has signified his support for the Government, but he is the onl...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c1619 (Link to this contribution)
165: Clause 54, page 39, line 24, at end insert ““, or
(c) arranges for another person to provide, f...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 734 c1621-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 166A and 166B, standing in my name on the Marshalled List, and...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c1623 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I want to say a few words in support of these clauses and indeed of all the amendments tha...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1605-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendments in this group refer to referral fees. Recent years have seen an explosion o...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1605 (Link to this contribution)
164A: Clause 54, page 39, line 20, at end insert—
““and in either case, the regulated person and the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1604 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for that suggestion.
This problem will become more and more ob...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 734 c1604 (Link to this contribution)
Another sanction would be that if a settlement has been made, the money is irrecoverable. Under a vo...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1604 (Link to this contribution)
I am disappointed with that response. I do think it adequately addresses reality as it exists today ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c1603 (Link to this contribution)
Speaking from years of experience in this field, I know that the term ““full and final settlement”” ...
Lord McNally | 734 c1603-4 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord says he speaks from very long experience. As this Bill progresses, I have found that ...
Lord Bach | 734 c1601-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we welcome Amendment 164 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and Amend...
Lord McNally | 734 c1602-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Thomas and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for introducing the mat...
Lord Dubs | 734 c1599-600 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to speak to Amendment 164ZA in my name and give my support to Amendment 164,...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 734 c1600-1 (Link to this contribution)
I support this amendment. The practice that it outlaws seems to be absolutely disgraceful, with an i...
Lord Monks | 734 c1613 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendments. I declare an interest as a non-executive director of Thompsons S...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 734 c1610-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, claims management companies are sometimes described in more popular language as ““claims f...
Lord McNally | 734 c1614-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have heard some powerful speeches about the good work of trade unions and charities, bu...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c1614 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I join all those who have spoken in favour of the amendments, in particular Amendment 166Z...
Lord Collins of Highbury | 734 c1609-10 (Link to this contribution)
I accept that there is no justification for excessive commercial referral fee arrangements, but we c...
Lord Collins of Highbury | 734 c1608-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I obviously have an interest in that I have put my name to Amendment 166ZB. First, I want ...
Lord Pannick | 734 c1606 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 166ZA in this group is in my name. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c1607 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord agree that it is common practice for one solicitor to transfer a case to a solic...
Lord Pannick | 734 c1607 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I agree. Of course, the Bill will not in any way prohibit such transfers; it will prohibit only...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1572 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Part 2 of the Bill has its complexities, but all sides are agreed on two principles.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1572 (Link to this contribution)
141: Clause 45, page 31, line 30, at end insert ““, (2A) or (2B)””
Lord McNally | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in 1962—which is now, sadly, 50 years ago—part one of my degree course contained a subsidi...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1594-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this has been a short but interesting debate. I shall not detain the House long. I very mu...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 734 c1589-91 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was not intending to intervene in this part of the debate, but I was absolutely fascinat...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 734 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise in support of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford’s amendment with considerable...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1585-6 (Link to this contribution)
163: After Clause 53, insert the following new Clause—
““Third party litigation funding
(1) A third ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1586-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in June 2007, the Civil Justice Council—a body headed by the Master of the Rolls and compr...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c1585 (Link to this contribution)
They are also applied for in private lawsuits.
Lord McNally | 734 c1584-5 (Link to this contribution)
The pained look with which the noble Lord, Lord Bach, comes to the Dispatch Box and implies that the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1585 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend for saying there will be synchronisation. The scales of justice hav...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 734 c1592-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the introduction of conditional fees into our system was an innovation in the rules agains...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1597 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I accept that the opposing view, pu...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for wearying your Lordships once more. The amendment would ban the practice of third-par...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution)
164: After Clause 53, insert the following new Clause—
““Third party’s insurance company
(1) A third...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
Could the noble Lord offer his services to the Office for Budget Responsibility?
Lord McNally | 734 c1595-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this has been an interesting and useful debate and I am grateful to my noble friend for ou...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 734 c1596-7 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is extremely kind. Does he agree that the best way of looking at this situation is to...
Lord McNally | 734 c1597 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sure that that postscript will be studied by the Lord Chancellor, and he will careful...
Lord Bach | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has been misleading us all along. He has played the role of a non-lawyer with immense s...
Lord McNally | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
I have been trying to keep that quiet. The paper I mentioned was one of nine papers that I took in 1...
Lord Dubs | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
Nothing has changed.
Lord McNally | 734 c1595 (Link to this contribution)
I think I had better get on to the brief.
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c1576 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend. Before he sits down, will he help us on this matter in...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 734 c1572 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is hesitating so that he may have...
Lord Avebury | 734 c1577-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the protective costs order that he was successful in obtai...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c1578 (Link to this contribution)
Actually, I cannot agree, because the Court of Appeal’s decision was a kind of precedent and it has ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1576 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to my noble friend for interrupting me with one paragraph to go, which would have...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c1576-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I must choose my words carefully because I do not wish what I say to be taken to be outrig...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c1579 (Link to this contribution)
I hesitate to disagree with the Lord Justice, but I do not understand that point, as one can apply a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1578 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that my noble friend would agree, however, that protective costs orders are matters of dis...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1578-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, at the risk of being accused of unqualified one-way sycophancy, I must again congratulate ...
Lord Bach | 734 c1584 (Link to this contribution)
Should all that not have been done before the legislation comes before one House, let alone a second...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1579-80 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot answer for Lord Justice Jackson, but that is a subsidiary point. His point is that it is ex...
Lord McNally | 734 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for his usual thorough presentation of ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c1581 (Link to this contribution)
It is said that they are in breach of their obligations under the convention.
Lord McNally | 734 c1581-3 (Link to this contribution)
As I said, we are consulting. I shall return to the question of getting it right. The problem is tha...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c1583 (Link to this contribution)
I had not realised that there was a consultation, and I am delighted to hear that that has now been ...
Lord McNally | 734 c1583 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure that I am able to commit to anything as rash as following up a recommendation that is ...
Lord Bach | 734 c1584 (Link to this contribution)
We on this Front Bench agree absolutely with the question that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresfo...
Lord McNally | 734 c1584 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is absolutely right. I have given my reply. That was the reply of the noble Lord, Lor...
Lord McNally | 734 c1658-62 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for the constructive way in which he has responded. I h...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1585 (Link to this contribution)
It is as my noble friend says. Lord Justice Jackson examined it and he came to the conclusion that t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1572-6 (Link to this contribution)
All sides are agreed on two principles—access to justice must be maintained and undue cost must be s...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c1583-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is a relief to know that the Ministry of Justice, like New York, never sleeps. No doubt...
Lord Ramsbotham | 734 c1651-3 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to speak in support of Amendment 172B, to speak to Amendment 174, and to speak to Amendments ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c1619-21 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 165, I shall speak to Amendments 167 and 168. We are still on Clauses ...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 734 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 166ZB is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord C...
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