UK Parliament / Open data

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 16 January 2012, in the House of Lords.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords committee stage third day. Clause 8 agreed to. Schedule 1 under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

734 c347-409, 423-52 

Session

2010-12

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0145
Monday, 23 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0143
Monday, 23 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0114
Monday, 23 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (8)

Proceeding contributions

Lord McNally | 734 c450 (Link to this contribution) That is always the problem. If you say that one thing is more difficult it is implied that the other...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c450 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add to what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has said. I have listened w...

Show all contributions (117)
Lord McNally | 734 c450-2 (Link to this contribution) I promise the noble and learned Baroness that I shall go into the Lord Chancellor’s room tomorrow an...
Baroness O'Loan | 734 c452 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his comments, and I am glad to hear that he will reflect further upon this ...
Baroness Massey of Darwen | 734 c436-9 (Link to this contribution) I speak to Amendments 80A, 82A, 82B and 82C. Perhaps I may first say how delighted I am to be speaki...
Lord Ramsbotham | 734 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 79B, and also speak in support of the amendments tabled by t...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c432-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendments 33 and 34. I have been asked by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments contains tremendous overlap. It is for that reason, among others,...
Baroness O'Loan | 734 c423 (Link to this contribution) 33: Schedule 1, page 116, line 1, at end insert— ““Children affected by civil and family law proceed...
Baroness Doocey | 734 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their support on these amendments. I have listened v...
Baroness Eaton | 734 c430-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 34 standing in my name and the names of my noble friends Lord...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c429-30 (Link to this contribution) I have a number of anxieties about the impact of the Government’s proposals on children in painful a...
Baroness Benjamin | 734 c427-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 33, which seeks to retain legal aid in cases where a child...
Baroness O'Loan | 734 c423-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment, which seeks to restore families with dependent childr...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c448 (Link to this contribution) As this issue came up in an earlier debate, will the Minister explain to the Committee how it is tha...
Lord McNally | 734 c448-50 (Link to this contribution) They are not legally offensive. We have been honest right from the first day I answered questions. I...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 734 c440-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there are 13 amendments in this group. The Committee will be relieved to know that I inten...
Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia | 734 c444 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak in support of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in particular on Amen...
Baroness Walmsley | 734 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be brief but I have six big guns to call in aid. I support Amendment 34 in the name...
Lord McNally | 734 c446 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, even at this late stage of the night, the mere appearance of the noble and learned Barones...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c444-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has had a powerful display of the House’s feeling on these matters. It is of ...
Lord McNally | 734 c446-8 (Link to this contribution) Of course, having listened to a debate dominated by what I acknowledge is a great deal of expertise ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c389-90 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I was going to be diverted down the tracks of coroners’ inquests. However, I take the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c389 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend referred to Clause 9 and to exceptional cases. He will be aware that a s...
Baroness Doocey | 734 c391 (Link to this contribution) 32: Schedule 1, page 116, line 1, at end insert— ““Social welfare Civil legal services provided in r...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 734 c390-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as was to be expected, the debate has gone far wider than the limited purpose of my amendm...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c387-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we certainly believe that going down this road will mean that poor people do not have to p...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c389 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would not be appropriate to second guess, as it were, what the director of legal aid ca...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c389 (Link to this contribution) We do not wish to inflict the scenario which my noble friend indicates. The scale at which we believ...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c389 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble and learned friend again but does he regard it as satisfactory...
Baroness O'Loan | 734 c401 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 32, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. It is generally acknowl...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 734 c400-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Howe rightly said a few moments ago, other amendments later in our...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let us face it, the next group of amendments covers almost exactly the same area as this o...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c393-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I intervene briefly not to support every last dot and comma of the amendment—not least bec...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c397 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. There are 7,500 pages, and the devil of it is that ...
Lord Bach | 734 c397 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is 7,500 pages, so I am advised.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in entire agreement with what has been said by my noble friends Lady Doocey and Lord ...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c394-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Newton, so I am keen to come in at ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c379 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord made a perfectly reasonable criticism of one aspect of this amendment. First, he comm...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c379 (Link to this contribution) I am second to none in my admiration, indeed my gratitude, for AVMA, which helped me and my family a...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have my name to Amendment 36B, as does my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson, who has sent ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c374 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has spoken from personal experience of this issue and I hope that the Minister wi...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c377 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise in the hope of commanding your Lordships’ attention for two reasons. First, my name...
Baroness Mallalieu | 734 c375-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a number of noble Lords have spoken who have experience both of the legal and the medical ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 734 c372 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 28. I have received a number of briefing letters from all sorts of org...
Baroness Eaton | 734 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 36A, which deals with the position of children in medical ne...
Lord Goodhart | 734 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, at the beginning of the debate was b...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c387 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that you cannot get a conditional fee agreement unless you have a case, and you canno...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c387 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think the position is that if they lose they do not pay it. That is what we are retainin...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c387 (Link to this contribution) I need to answer that; I do not think that is right. The position of a poor claimant is that they ca...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c387 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the point that we are making is that while the ATE insurance premium is being abolished ge...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c387 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend not understand that a poor litigant simply cannot afford any ATE premium in ord...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c384-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in congratulating those who have taken part in what h...
Lord Beecham | 734 c381-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is right. In addition to that issue, which goes to matters of causation and, potentia...
Lord Faulks | 734 c380 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the noble Lord confirm that one of the causes of delays is that in complicated cases...
Lord Beecham | 734 c380 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a very thoughtful debate, and that owes much to the fact that so many of tho...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope the Government do not think that this debate is special pleading, as the noble Baro...
Lord Bach | 734 c361 (Link to this contribution) Specifically not on social welfare law, however. Why are this Government doing differently?
Lord Scott of Foscote | 734 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) I beg your pardon. That might have sounded like a peroration but I am afraid it was only a beginning...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 734 c354 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott. There is no greater c...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c354-5 (Link to this contribution) Like other noble Lords, I wish to support what has been said by all speakers so far in this short de...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was exhilarated, enthralled and deeply flattered by the reference made by the noble Lord...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c356-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, should not the governing principle be that every single one of our citizens, regardless of...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c358 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would very briefly reassert the fundamentalism of access to the law. Equality before the...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c358-9 (Link to this contribution) As a former Member of the other place and as a Member of this House, I am deeply suspicious of secon...
Lord Bach | 734 c359-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, I thank my noble friend Lord Howarth in particular for supporting our Amendment 24....
Lord McNally | 734 c361 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, and particularly my noble fri...
Lord McNally | 734 c361-2 (Link to this contribution) As I said at the very beginning, we were faced with circumstances where we had to make hard choices....
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c362 (Link to this contribution) What I said was that secondary legislation should be introduced only where essential, and the onus o...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 734 c363 (Link to this contribution) 28: Schedule 1, page 115, line 5, at end insert— ““Clinical negligence (1) Civil legal services prov...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 734 c363-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we now to come to the first of 60 or so amendments dealing in detail with Schedule 1. It i...
Lord McNally | 734 c362 (Link to this contribution) I did hear the noble Lord’s speech. I was merely pointing out that as a parliamentarian I, too, have...
Lord Faulks | 734 c362-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It is a matter of ha...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c369-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is one of those that have been put to Amendment 30. I set no particular store by t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on Amendment 30A, along with that of my noble friend Lord Faulks, who spoke cle...
Lord Faulks | 734 c367-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, all the amendments in this group are directed towards the retention of legal aid in clinic...
Lord Beecham | 734 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness should be aware that domestic matters will come later. I have, ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c347 (Link to this contribution) 21: Clause 8, page 5, line 31, leave out paragraph (a) and insert— ““(a) they are not specifically e...
Lord McNally | 734 c349 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 21 would have the effect of removing Part 1, Schedule 1 and bringing within the ...
Lord Scott of Foscote | 734 c353 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support strongly the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and the other am...
Baroness Mallalieu | 734 c352 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder what on earth could, in fact, be a valid reason for objecting to the spirit of th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the problem for many lawyers is that we so often look into the past. Common lawyers in par...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c351 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to Amendments 23 and 27, which are very much on the same lines as the a...
Lord Goodhart | 734 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I entirely agree with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and the noble and...
Lord Faulks | 734 c350-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and others. The nobl...
Baroness D'Souza | 734 c351 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should remind the Committee that, if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendmen...
Lord Beecham | 734 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) With all respect to the Minister, that is not a very satisfactory reply. In the first place, to sugg...
Lord Faulks | 734 c350 (Link to this contribution) 22: Clause 8, page 5, line 35, leave out subsection (2)
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c406 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain why poverty is a less fundamental issue than liberty or safety?
Lord McNally | 734 c406 (Link to this contribution) I am going to go on to this. I must say to the noble Lord that it would help if I can get further th...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sure we all accept that it is imperative that the Government do not lose control of the economy...
Lord McNally | 734 c407 (Link to this contribution) Politics is always a question of priorities. We keep on having this Second Reading debate. If we wan...
Lord Beecham | 734 c407 (Link to this contribution) That was hardly a representative example of cases. In most cases—although necessarily costs in clini...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c407 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for giving way, but I must just reply. First, the whole point of my alarming...
Lord McNally | 734 c408 (Link to this contribution) It still seems barmy to me. Likewise, with regard to the 7,500-page volume mentioned by the noble Lo...
Lord Bach | 734 c408 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister’s best point is that the volumes on welfare benefits increased in the years of the L...
Lord McNally | 734 c408 (Link to this contribution) That is not my best point. The best point is that we are having, supposedly, a national debate about...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c403 (Link to this contribution) There is something that the noble Lord has not mentioned, which could be an important factor, bearin...
Lord Bach | 734 c401-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, client A was a single mother aged 20 with two young children. She had no permanent home an...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c404 (Link to this contribution) It is just habit. Would the noble Lord agree that his statistics suggest that where there is advice,...
Lord Bach | 734 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely. It seems to follow because the people who practise this kind of law—and we know ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c404 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister agree that the statistics he has just—
Lord Bach | 734 c404 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for calling me a Minister.
Lord McNally | 734 c406 (Link to this contribution) I am only one and a half pages into my reply. I do not mind. Carry on.
Lord McNally | 734 c405-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 32 and 89 seek to bring welfare benefit matters into the scope of legal aid fun...
Lord Faulks | 734 c388 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he help the House as to whether it is the Gov...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c398-400 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend Lady Lister, I often feel that after the noble Lord, Lord Newton of B...
Lord Wigley | 734 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support the amendments so ably moved and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady ...
Lord Wigley | 734 c366-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendment so comprehensively moved by the noble and learned Lord, L...
Lord McNally | 734 c407 (Link to this contribution) I never even suggested that. However, I am suggesting that we are talking about processes where the ...
Lord Bach | 734 c403-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord as he is absolutely right about the social and financial costs of ab...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c450 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the Minister is trying to give a full response, but in his valiant reply he said t...
Baroness Doocey | 734 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like also to speak to Amendments 35 and 89. These amendments relate to the abilit...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c377-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, was right to draw attention to the unwillingness of members ...

Subjects

Disability
Children
Compensation
Appeals
Administration of justice
Asylum
Carers
Damages
Costs
Civil proceedings
Court orders
Health services
Families
Legal aid scheme
Liability
Expenditure
Domestic abuse
Insurance
Migrants
Legal costs
Abduction
Family proceedings
NHS
Low incomes
Negligence
Social security benefits
Sentencing
Young people
UN Convention on the Rights of the Child
Expert evidence
Citizens' advice bureaux
Law centres
Mediation

Legislation

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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