UK Parliament / Open data

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 20 December 2011, in the House of Lords.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1 under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

733 c1687-734, 1750-72 

Session

2010-12

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0069
Tuesday, 17 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0070
Monday, 16 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0068
Monday, 16 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (8)

Proceeding contributions

Lord McNally | 733 c1734 (Link to this contribution) This is another moment in history. I have been heckled for mispronunciation by the noble Lord, Lord ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1734 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought I detected in the last few sentences the possibility of some movement in this ar...

Show all contributions (117)
Lord McNally | 733 c1730 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for that summing up. I was well aware of his own deep concern abo...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c1731 (Link to this contribution) I might be wrong, but is it not true that legal aid is available for advice for people who attend th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1729 (Link to this contribution) Rather than saying that cases would have been won, would the noble Lord not use the expression ““gai...
Lord Bach | 733 c1729-30 (Link to this contribution) In my legal career and otherwise, I have always given way to better phrases used by Welsh lawyers an...
Lord McNally | 733 c1733 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Cambridge. This is the value of the House of Lords—there is always an expert around to he...
Lord Prescott | 733 c1733 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord would not have made that mistake if he had not been reading it out.
Lord McNally | 733 c1731-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is an expert. She wrote a precursor to 1,620 pages of advice, so I will accept th...
Lord Bach | 733 c1750 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 1, page 2, line 1, leave out ““may”” and insert ““must””
Lord Bach | 733 c1757 (Link to this contribution) I will withdraw the amendment in due course, although I must say that having had the support that I ...
Lord Bach | 733 c1750-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment, short though it is, is important because it allows the Committee to questi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1752 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an interest as president and founder of the Citizenship Foundation, which is the...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1753-4 (Link to this contribution) It was a very good idea of my noble friend Lord Bach to table this amendment, and I do not want to i...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 733 c1754 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I share with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the commendation of the Government ...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 733 c1754 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment and congratulate the Government on their imaginative development i...
Lord McNally | 733 c1754-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is warming to find a clause in the Bill that has such general approval. Amendment 3 see...
Lord McNally | 733 c1756-7 (Link to this contribution) He will be very annoyed; that is what his father was called. It is one of the problems of being in t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1708-9 (Link to this contribution) I will say something about that in our debate on Amendment 2. I entirely agree. I think that the Gov...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 733 c1708 (Link to this contribution) What the Government are proposing will cost much more, because of various things. What does the nobl...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1708 (Link to this contribution) I can go from 1958 to last Friday on doing legal aid work. I do not know whether the noble Lord can ...
Lord McNally | 733 c1714 (Link to this contribution) We will listen and we will ponder. I hope that that will be the spirit in which we conduct the debat...
Lord Beecham | 733 c1714 (Link to this contribution) I am not so sure about adoption being that much more difficult these days.
Lord McNally | 733 c1713-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his words. We are very pleased to see the noble ...
Lord Beecham | 733 c1709-13 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must begin by declaring some interests. I am an unpaid consultant with the firm of which...
Lord McNally | 733 c1714-5 (Link to this contribution) There is absolutely no logic in what the noble Lord has said, with the utmost possible respect—I thi...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 733 c1714 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord McNally, has just cited the idea that we have the most generous legal aid syste...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 733 c1716 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I want to help the Ministe...
Lord McNally | 733 c1715-6 (Link to this contribution) I have no idea whatever whether that figure is correct. I am not even going to promise to write to m...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 733 c1718 (Link to this contribution) So far the Minister has not mentioned the conversations that he and the Government have had with the...
Lord McNally | 733 c1716-8 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend had a fault—and, my God, that is a dangerous thing even to suggest—it is his impe...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1718 (Link to this contribution) I referred to expenditure that was genuinely necessary to ensure that all our citizens have equal ac...
Lord McNally | 733 c1718 (Link to this contribution) At one stage I accused Peter Lodder, chairman of the Bar Council, of stalking me, so often did I see...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 733 c1718-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to Article 6 of the convention being the standard. We should bear in mind, as ...
Lord McNally | 733 c1718 (Link to this contribution) The point is that that is genuinely what we, too, are trying to do. It is a matter of judgment. In t...
Lord McNally | 733 c1719 (Link to this contribution) As I said, I reflect on almost anything that my friend says, and it is now in Hansard as well.
Lord Pannick | 733 c1719-20 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with the noble Lord’s point if he will be patient; I prefer to deal with it in the cours...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1719 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the noble Lord grasped my point.
Lord Pannick | 733 c1719 (Link to this contribution) I will come to the noble Lord's concern that the amendment does not go far enough. My point is that ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c1721-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall intervene briefly. My remarks, such as they are—I hope they will not be long—apply...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1721 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are now coming to what I regard as the nitty-gritty of this Bill: what is going to be i...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1721 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must secure equality between ...
Lord Pannick | 733 c1720 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to the noble Lord, I am inviting the Committee to accept that whatever the Bill i...
Lord Hylton | 733 c1727 (Link to this contribution) I support the principle laid out in Amendment 78, which is in this group, because appeals will almos...
Lord Dubs | 733 c1726-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in broad agreement with the amendment, although again I share the reservation express...
Lord Bach | 733 c1727 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not being present during the first, very important debate...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c1723-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Newton, who I am tempted to call my...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 733 c1725-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on an amendment such as this it is important that we look first at the substance. This is ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1725 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with every word that has been spoken so far. I say to my noble friend the Minister...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1728 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s mention of Lord Justice Carnwath put me in mind of a fact which none of us has so f...
Lord Bach | 733 c1727-8 (Link to this contribution) That is what I mean—in case there is any misunderstanding about it. I can see how that could be misi...
Lord Bach | 733 c1728-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord and I shall say a little word about that before I sit down. Admirable w...
Lord McNally | 733 c1766-71 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their comments. A number of points have been raised. The helpline is an 0845...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1766 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make one point and one point only but I hope to do so forcibly. If it is mandato...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 733 c1765-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I raise just one or two points about the notion of a compulsory telephone gateway. The fir...
Lord Bach | 733 c1772 (Link to this contribution) I am not concerned about that tonight, but the position is not clear yet and we need to be clear. Th...
Lord McNally | 733 c1772 (Link to this contribution) I will write to the noble Lord to clarify that. If there is a problem of cost, a person will be able...
Baroness Prashar | 733 c1762-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support this amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for introducing it in...
Lord Shipley | 733 c1763-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 114 and 116 and to all the principles that lie behind the am...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1764-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bach and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, have identified, ima...
Lord McNally | 733 c1757-8 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give precise figures, but I am, as I said, the Minister responsible for digital development...
Lord Bach | 733 c1759 (Link to this contribution) 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must ensure that a person elig...
Lord Bach | 733 c1758 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord says, there is everything to play for—rather like this Bill, I hope. At the risk ...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 733 c1761-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 4, which has been comprehensively moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. ...
Lord Bach | 733 c1759-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we come on now to an important element of Part 1 of the Bill, which is the mandatory gatew...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 733 c1696-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, 43 years ago, I was a Home Office Minister but I doubt very much whether the procedures th...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1693 (Link to this contribution) I hope to be able to do that. I hope that I have not been unduly partisan, but we all feel strongly ...
Lord Faulks | 733 c1688-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, explained, the current drafting ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1689-92 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Constitution Committee did us, as it always does, a good service in reminding us and s...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 733 c1693-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, speaking as a liberal from the Liberal Democrat Benches, it is with regret that I say that...
Lord Ramsbotham | 733 c1694-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I briefly support the amendment by echoing the words that have already been quoted—those o...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 733 c1693 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could ask the noble Lord a question. I listened with great care to what he said. It would ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 733 c1693 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that in a second. The noble and learned Baroness will be pleased to know that I am ab...
Baroness Verma | 733 c1701 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let us hear first from the noble Lord and then from my noble friend.
Lord Goldsmith | 733 c1697 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support this amendment for reasons which I will explain—
Lord Goodhart | 733 c1697-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is the turn of this side, but I wait with pleasure to hear what the noble and learned L...
Lord Goldsmith | 733 c1698-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, went before me, because I can wholeheartedly...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 733 c1699-700 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, was born in inner-city Liverpool. I had the pr...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c1700-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is probably my turn, if my noble former constituent will allow me. I have been stimulat...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 733 c1701 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I? That side has just been speaking.
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 733 c1703-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my starting point was the same as that of my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, in t...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 733 c1704-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether I might make some brief comments, bearing in mind the time. I would like ...
Lord Goldsmith | 733 c1703 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might say to the noble Lord that I was concerned about precisely that point. I look to the...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1703 (Link to this contribution) I refer the noble and learned Lord to the fact that the sentence within the brackets which qualifies...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 733 c1703 (Link to this contribution) There must be some restriction. I unhesitatingly support the legal aid system but there has always b...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1703 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has just made the case for the Government rather succinctly. That is the argument; wh...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 733 c1701-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to ask the Government a simple question. What do the Bar Council, the Law Soc...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1702 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one could be in danger of being slightly sentimental about the Access to Justice Act. Some...
Baroness Whitaker | 733 c1707 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be brief. Very much following the speech of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Bu...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 733 c1707-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have heard legal speeches from the top lawyers in this country, and no one should fail ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1708 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been involved with legal aid for longer than anyone except my noble friend Lord Phi...
Baroness Verma | 733 c1707 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord could speak first, followed by the noble Baroness.
Lord Hylton | 733 c1707 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise with great caution as a lay man in this very legal debate. However, I read the arti...
Baroness Verma | 733 c1705 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if we could hear from the Liberal Democrats, the Cross Benches and then the Labour Party.
Lord Pannick | 733 c1687 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must sec...
Lord Pannick | 733 c1687-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is in my name and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the n...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1715 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend at least accept that we legislate vastly more than any free democracy in the we...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the noble Lord has grasped what I was saying. The amendment states, "““in accordance ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 733 c1719 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord would outline what is meant by, "““in accordance with this Part””."
Lord Pannick | 733 c1719 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a lengthy debate that has touched on a large number of very important issues...
Baroness Mallalieu | 733 c1695-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether others felt, as I did, that what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, just said ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 733 c1693 (Link to this contribution) I do not mean to prolong the noble Lord’s speech by my interruption, but perhaps I could suggest tha...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 733 c1705-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, many years ago, when Lord Scarman was chairman of the Law Commission, I remember him sayin...
Lord Bach | 733 c1771 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly withdraw my amendment, and I thank the Minister for his very full reply. Speaking f...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 733 c1758 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would simply like to make clear that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was right up to a poi...
Lord Bach | 733 c1758 (Link to this contribution) We spent quite a lot of money on it, and planned to spend more. I think that that is as far as we ca...

Subjects

Disability
Contracts
Databases
Disadvantaged
Costs
Civil proceedings
Advisory services
Fees and charges
Education
Legal aid scheme
Expenditure
EU law
Learning disability
Mental illness
Private sector
Low incomes
Procurement
Sentencing
Standards
Training
Telephone services
Remand in custody
Citizens' advice bureaux
Lord Chancellor

Legislation

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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