UK Parliament / Open data

Health and Social Care Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 14 November 2011, in the House of Lords, led by Earl Howe.
Health and Social Care Bill. Lords committee stage fifth day. Clause 6 agreed to. Schedule 1 agreed to. Clause 7 under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

732 c452-519, 531-70 

Session

2010-12

Department

Department of Health

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Health and Social Care Bill. In two volumes. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 92-EN also published.
Thursday, 8 September 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Constitution Select Committee (HL) eighteenth report on the Health and Social Care Bill.
Wednesday, 14 September 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Nineteenth report on: Health and Social Care Bill; London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill; Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill. (Lords Minutes).
Friday, 14 October 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Patel | 732 c453 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 46 Moved by Moved by Lord Patel of Bradford 46: After Clause 5, insert the following ...
Lord Patel | 732 c453-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have discussed many aspects of equity and equality in relation to this Bill. In moving ...

Show all contributions (143)
Earl Howe | 732 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me prior notice of her question. I am grate...
Lord Patel | 732 c542 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his extensive reply. When I moved this amendment in the name of t...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c542 (Link to this contribution) 57A: Schedule 1, page 277, line 37, at end insert— ““(1A) The Secretary of State must make provision...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c540 (Link to this contribution) I stand as a supporter of the noble Earl on the concept of senates. He is not getting much support b...
Earl Howe | 732 c540 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord could be proved right. As I have said, we will see how the functions of senates are d...
Lord Warner | 732 c540 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl but I am still puzzled about where he and the department are ...
Earl Howe | 732 c540-2 (Link to this contribution) I will talk in a moment about specialised commissioning and I hope the answer to the noble Lord’s qu...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c538 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether this is one of the occasions where the organigram that we were discussing previousl...
Earl Howe | 732 c540 (Link to this contribution) As I have mentioned, the senates will come under the wing, so to speak, of the NHS Commissioning Boa...
Lord Whitty | 732 c548 (Link to this contribution) 59A: Clause 7, page 4, line 15, at end insert— ““(1A) The areas covered by clinical commissioning gr...
Earl Howe | 732 c547 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend allow me to write to him on that point?
Earl Howe | 732 c547 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that that is the intention. The clinical commissioning group will wish to monito...
Lord Greaves | 732 c547 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend replies to this group of amendments, I hope that I may ask the Minister a que...
Earl Howe | 732 c545-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a valuable debate on what is an important topic by any standards. It is vita...
Lord Patel | 732 c547 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, will he please confirm that the primary care doctors and the primary ...
Baroness Wheeler | 732 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to speak on this group of amendments, in particular on Amendments 143A and 14...
Lord Whitty | 732 c545 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I intervene briefly in this debate to ask the noble Earl whether, in his reply, he could p...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c542-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 57A is to do with reporting complaints to the NHS Commissioning Board. There are...
Earl Howe | 732 c516-8 (Link to this contribution) Not at all, my Lords. Of course we have confidence in the chairman. However, it is a little strange ...
Lord Greaves | 732 c518 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Earl sits down, the question I asked about the specific role of the national Commis...
Earl Howe | 732 c519 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my noble friend. The national Commissioning Board will, we envisage, be tasked with c...
Lord Warner | 732 c519 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on Amendment 50, which I seem to have moved quite a long time ago, I will consider the nob...
Lord Patel | 732 c531 (Link to this contribution) 51: Clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert— ““(c) must exercise its functions by overseeing sub-na...
Lord Patel | 732 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, I am very pleased to move the a...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c532-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also have an amendment in this group. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that he antic...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c533 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to speak to Amendments 51 and 84, but before I do, I have an interest to decl...
Earl Howe | 732 c516 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that we are following the normal procedure. There is a list of appointments that...
Lord Warner | 732 c516 (Link to this contribution) Can I press the noble Earl a little further on that? If a chairman has been appointed for this body ...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister what the potential relationship is between clinical senat...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if I may, I will pursue what has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, and also, in ...
Lord Warner | 732 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and restore her confidence in the Labo...
Lord Sentamu | 732 c535 (Link to this contribution) In my day-to-day life, I have to do what they call ““oversight””. The trouble with oversight is that...
Baroness Cumberlege | 732 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) Can I also ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about his amendment, in which he proposes setting up anoth...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c537 (Link to this contribution) Can I accept the invitation to come back on this? The reason why I am interested in the other bit of...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c537 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his typically articulate and thoughtful response. The idea of clusters co...
Baroness Murphy | 732 c534 (Link to this contribution) Even the psychiatrists were not. I can remember this group of people being pretty darn useless. You ...
Baroness Murphy | 732 c534 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must confess that when I first read about clinical senates, I thought, ““This is a great...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c510 (Link to this contribution) Can I say how much I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to our Committee? We have missed him. Now...
Lord Greaves | 732 c510-1 (Link to this contribution) I was of course teasing the noble Lord in as pleasant a way that I could. This is another instance w...
Baroness Hussein-Ece | 732 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a few brief comments on Amendments 50 and 52C. I listened to all of the arg...
Lord Sentamu | 732 c506 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not going to speak to these probing amendments, but as I have been gratuitously refe...
Lord Greaves | 732 c508-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have for most of this Committee so far been listening to and reading what people have sa...
Lord Beecham | 732 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these are probing amendments: as the debate has shown, there is a great deal to probe. I h...
Lord Warner | 732 c504 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness is experienced enough, like me, to remember the 1974 reorganisation ...
Baroness Cumberlege | 732 c503 (Link to this contribution) I would like to support the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. It is really rather a mixed bag of amendmen...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 732 c504-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. She and I have sat ...
Baroness Cumberlege | 732 c504 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for that intervention. I have no experience of gymnasts and, sadly, I c...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c516 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he said, but did he pick up my point that the Government se...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way again. I think it is a very interesting point about t...
Earl Howe | 732 c514-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an excellent debate on a set of important issues, and I am glad to count my ...
Lord Greaves | 732 c513-4 (Link to this contribution) It is our view that the original proposals were not working at all, and the proposals that we have n...
Lord Sentamu | 732 c513 (Link to this contribution) The Benches opposite are probably provoking you into some kind of statement because of your earlier ...
Lord Greaves | 732 c513 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure why the noble Lord is asking me that question. He is tempting me to make provoca...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c513 (Link to this contribution) From what the noble Lord said, why on earth did we not continue with PCTs and give them a kick up th...
Lord Greaves | 732 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely flattered that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, thinks that I have the slightest idea whe...
Lord Warner | 732 c512 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord’s flow, but I would like to press him a little further to giv...
Lord Greaves | 732 c512 (Link to this contribution) There is a great deal of truth in what the noble Lord says. Looking at this from afar, I think that ...
Earl Howe | 732 c495 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. If the board was not delivering the mandate, it is s...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) Either the mandate is so detailed that you will have reams of paper telling the board what to do or ...
Lord Warner | 732 c496 (Link to this contribution) 50: Clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert— ““( ) must include at least one member who is a regist...
Lord Warner | 732 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lord Rooker, he has asked me to move Amendme...
Lord Warner | 732 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak on this amendment, mainly because of my puzzlement over why the Government...
Lord Mawhinney | 732 c492 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I too want to focus on line 27 of Clause 6: "““The Board is subject to the duty under sect...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his response. I am, of course, very happy for this to ...
Earl Howe | 732 c493-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as has been pointed out, this amendment returns us to the topic of the comprehensive healt...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend should refine his amendment by limiting the number of grammatical devices ...
Lord Warner | 732 c495 (Link to this contribution) I well understand the Civil Service’s ability to use the semicolon to extend a sentence for a very l...
Baroness Murphy | 732 c503 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very large group of amendments and I take them in the spirit that they are mainl...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c500-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a series of amendments in this group concerning membership of the national Commissi...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 732 c502 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to go back to Amendment 50 and, in supporting this amendment, to tell your L...
Lord Patel | 732 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment, and I strongly support it. It is absolutely crucial...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the most interesting aspects of the proposals in this Bill is the greater status to...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c497 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to this amendment, which is also in my name, and to support the other amen...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c500 (Link to this contribution) Apparently there was a Persian poet who got there even before him, but whether Donald Rumsfeld was a...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it sounds as though there is a considerable level of agreement on this. I, too, believe th...
Lord Rea | 732 c499 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support all those noble Lords who have spoken so far and I agree with everything they ha...
Earl Howe | 732 c482-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Government are clear that the education, training and continuing development of the he...
Baroness Thornton | 732 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the risk of stating the obvious, the massive reorganisation of the NHS proposed in the ...
Earl Howe | 732 c488 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord decides what to do with his amendment, I should say that I did not wish in the...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very detailed and extensive response, which is genuinely welc...
Lord Warner | 732 c488 (Link to this contribution) 47B: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Secretary of State’s duty relating to educat...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c488 (Link to this contribution) I welcome those comments. It was not a criticism made by the noble Earl about this but by other nobl...
Baroness D'Souza | 732 c489 (Link to this contribution) I must advise your Lordships that if Amendment 48 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments 49 to 51 by ...
Lord Warner | 732 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to everybody who has spoken in this debate. I particularly welcome the suppo...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c489-92 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we come to a very important matter—the role and function of the national Commissioning Boa...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c489 (Link to this contribution) 48: Clause 6, page 3, leave out lines 27 to 34 and insert— ““(2) The Board has the function of arran...
Lord Ribeiro | 732 c477-8 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the debate with considerable interest, particularly as it brings to our attention...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c475-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have an amendment in this grouping. It addresses the duty that I would like to see on cl...
Baroness Emerton | 732 c474-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 47B. At Second Reading, I referred to why I thought it imp...
Lord Mawhinney | 732 c480 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not intend to detain your Lordships very long. However, I very much hope that my nobl...
Lord Sentamu | 732 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I too support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Proposed new subsection (2) si...
Lord Owen | 732 c478-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I reiterate some of the comments that have already been made by many noble Lords on the se...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c481 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, will be tempted by this comment. If commissioning groups...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c453 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will give very careful consideration to this request. I believe it will enr...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 732 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, how could one not accept this amendment?
Lord Beecham | 732 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like other noble Lords, I declare an interest in charitable organisations that are in the ...
Lord Patel of Bradford | 732 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened carefully and with great interest to the many excellent contributions on t...
Earl Howe | 732 c462-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin by saying that I completely understand the seriousness of the issues raised by the...
Bishop of Chester | 732 c460 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for what she just said about the complexity o...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c468-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 47A, which stands also in the names of my noble friends Lord Walto...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) 47A: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Health Education England (1) The Secretary o...
Lord Turnberg | 732 c472-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is attached to Amendment 47B, so ably introduced by my noble friend Lord Warner. I...
Lord Warner | 732 c470-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 47B, which to some extent overlaps with Amendment 47A, which ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare all my interests in relation to hospice and palliative care services. The amend...
Lord Noon | 732 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Patel of Bradford. I declare...
Baroness Thornton | 732 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to intervene at this stage because I think this is the only place where I can ask t...
Earl Howe | 732 c452 (Link to this contribution) That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
Baroness Barker | 732 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for over 25 years I have worked either in or as a consultant to voluntary organisations. C...
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 732 c459 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to lend support to the amendment. I work with charities for the homeless an...
Lord Turnberg | 732 c458 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to lend my support this amendment. I speak here as a trustee of the Wolfson Foundat...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 732 c458 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, charities have been campaigning about the VAT issue for many years. My charitable interest...
Lord Whitty | 732 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed reply to what has been a fascinating debate. I fear...
Earl Howe | 732 c566-9 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will allow me, I will answer those questions in a moment. Amendment 101A would sim...
Earl Howe | 732 c565-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I take that point on board. It is my understanding that the NHS Commissioning Board will w...
Lord Warner | 732 c565 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but I was aware of that. My concern was that it seemed to le...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can the noble Earl assure me that the appointments will be made by independent bodies, and...
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top | 732 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, this is a very important set of amendments, which we do not have time to deal with effectiv...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I am the last Member of the Committee to speak on the amendments in this group and...
Earl Howe | 732 c563-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had another well informed and stimulating debate. I will start by going back to th...
Lord Warner | 732 c558 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord aware that some of the most effective clinical commissioning in the existing arran...
Lord Beecham | 732 c560-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I spoke to the amendments concerning the NHS Commissioning Board, I said that the arr...
Lord Greaves | 732 c558-60 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that there are no counties where that might be the appropriate arrangement. I am say...
Lord Greaves | 732 c558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very mixed bag of amendments. It is all about clinical commissioning groups but ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 732 c556-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments and this debate are incredibly important. The risk of conflict of...
Baroness Barker | 732 c556 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 92ZZA, which stands in my name and those of my noble friends. At this tim...
Lord Warner | 732 c554-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 169, 171 and 174 in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord P...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c553 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to Amendment 101A, in my name and that of other noble Lords. Before I do, I will say on...
Lord Patel | 732 c552-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be brief in supporting the amendment of my noble friend Lord Kakkar. I also support...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 732 c550-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, clinical commissioning groups are, of course, one of the main building blocks of the Gover...
Lord Rea | 732 c549 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, following the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I raised this issue briefly on the second day o...
Lord Whitty | 732 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to those I informed that I would not be here to move Amendment 59A—I am here a...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 732 c540 (Link to this contribution) I have a quick initial question. If a CCG happens to be in the area of, say, a university medical sc...
Baroness Jolly | 732 c547 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl for his reply, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for her commitment to qualit...
Lord Warner | 732 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment and I do so from a background of having been the chairman of the N...
Lord Kakkar | 732 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 60 is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. It proposes to deal wit...
Earl Howe | 732 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we heartily endorse the important role that clinical advice will play in supporting the NH...
Lord Mawhinney | 732 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) I am a just a simple Belfast boy. Archbishop of York seems pretty good to me; most of the clergy I k...
Lord Cormack | 732 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, moved an absolutely model probing a...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 732 c563 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what I want to say might have been a little long as an intervention in the Minister’s spee...

Subjects

Complaints
Disclosure of information
Charities
Equality
Health
Education
Governing bodies
Exemptions
Health professions
Health authorities
Local government
NHS
Patients
Membership
Public appointments
Primary care trusts
Standards
Voluntary organisations
Training
Reform
Taxation
VAT
Risk assessment
Information Commissioner's Office
National Patient Safety Agency
NHS Commissioning Board
Health Education England
Clinical commissioning groups

Legislation

Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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