Health and Social Care Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 25 October 2011, in the House of Lords.

Health and Social Care Bill. Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1: Secretary of State's duty to promote comprehensive health service, under consideration.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

731 c659-746

Session

2010-12

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 731 c735 (Link to this contribution) This must not develop into a private discussion about the finer points of our report or the law, in ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c734 (Link to this contribution) Of course the words could be retained, but the question is whether it is right to retain them when, ...

Show all contributions (157)

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 731 c734-5 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the noble and learned Lord’s intervention, which is very powerful. But the fact remains...

Lord Williamson of Horton | 731 c735-6 (Link to this contribution) I thought it would be nice to hear another voice, having been here since 3 pm or earlier. I should l...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c735 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, I wonder if she could just help me with—

Earl Howe | 731 c730 (Link to this contribution) I made that point in connection with education and training where, as I have said repeatedly, we are...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c730 (Link to this contribution) That is a very tactful way of putting it. I do not intend to speak for very much longer, but I want ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c731-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, under the distinguished chairmanship of the noble ...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c730 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that the text of the amendment put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, diff...

Earl Howe | 731 c729 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is caricaturing the position. The Secretary of State, in the case of educat...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c729 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, as she could not possibly have come forw...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c730 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to intervene; I was hoping that the noble Lord might have finished.

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c729-30 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. I will just respond to him before giving way to the noble and le...

Lord Greaves | 731 c732-3 (Link to this contribution) This is the first time that I have spoken in this Committee and I repeat my interest in this Bill as...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c733 (Link to this contribution) In my clear opinion, yes. The idea of ultimate responsibility being with the Secretary of State is t...

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 731 c733 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord M...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 731 c726 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that we will finish at nine o’clock or when the debate on an amendment finishes? Ther...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 731 c726 (Link to this contribution) Medical Education England, I beg your pardon. Will that body disappear with the development of Healt...

Lord Patel | 731 c726 (Link to this contribution) It is Medical Education England.

Lord Walton of Detchant | 731 c725-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a lengthy debate on an extremely complex and difficult matter in a complex a...

Lord Patel | 731 c725 (Link to this contribution) That depends on the interpretation of the word ““care””.

Earl Howe | 731 c725 (Link to this contribution) As I read it, it is the noble Lord’s amendment and it is for him to speak to it, but it refers to th...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 731 c725 (Link to this contribution) That is the Government’s amendment. The Minister said that my noble friend’s amendment did not inclu...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 731 c727 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 2 to 4 and insert— ““(2) The Secretary of State must for that p...

Baroness Northover | 731 c727 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that we will stop at nine. If that means that we are part way through the next g...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 731 c727-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is tabled in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jay and Lady T...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 731 c721-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the debate on these amendments concludes, it had not been the intention of my noble...

Lord Willis of Knaresborough | 731 c722 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. I have listened carefully to the whole debate today and it seems ...

Earl Howe | 731 c722 (Link to this contribution) I will happily consider that between now and Report, as indeed I will consider all the points that h...

Lord Willis of Knaresborough | 731 c722 (Link to this contribution) This is important. I understand what the Minister is saying but at least he could have given us guid...

Earl Howe | 731 c722 (Link to this contribution) I would like nothing more than to give that assurance but unfortunately I cannot, as I am not in a p...

Earl Howe | 731 c722-3 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend knows—very well, I hope—how important research is to Ministers in my department, how...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 731 c725 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could I ask the Minister about something that I do not understand? Why in my noble friend’...

Earl Howe | 731 c723-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lords, Lord Walton and Lord Turnberg, asked me about postgraduate deaneries. Postgraduate ...

Earl Howe | 731 c725 (Link to this contribution) I have already made clear, my Lords, that the amendment could include healthcare assistants. We have...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 731 c719 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, surely there is a very great difference between the Youth Justice Board, the abolition of ...

Earl of Listowel | 731 c719 (Link to this contribution) I take the noble Lord’s point, but I also think of the case of the Youth Justice Board, which has be...

Earl Howe | 731 c720 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may just clarify some of this. The wording of the government amendment could not be cleare...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister resumes his speech—I am sorry to do this, but I would like clarification. From w...

Earl of Listowel | 731 c719 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord. I can see the difference and I thank him for that helpful correction.

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c721 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I must stress this point a little further. This debate has revealed a fundamental c...

Earl Howe | 731 c721 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, that is not the case. I completely reject not only that remark but also the remark of ...

Lord Winston | 731 c720-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but I find it incredible that we are now in Committee in...

Earl Howe | 731 c720 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend and, naturally, I will give full consideration to his suggestion. T...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 731 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) I return to my noble friend Lord Warner’s intervention. In the case that he mentioned, it was I who ...

Lord Winston | 731 c718 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could ask the Minister a general question. The noble Lord has been specific in picking up ...

Earl Howe | 731 c718 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised by that criticism because that is designed to capture trainees, who may not have a gu...

Lord Warner | 731 c718 (Link to this contribution) My example was not hypothetical—it actually happened.

Earl Howe | 731 c718 (Link to this contribution) It did happen, but it did not happen with the system that I have outlined in place. As I have just s...

Lord Patel | 731 c717 (Link to this contribution) I go back to the question that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked. In the event that the example he ...

Earl Howe | 731 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) It might or it might not. All I can say is that the Department of Health will have designed and co-o...

Lord Mawhinney | 731 c717 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the Minister wants to take this issue in the next set of amendments. A number of us...

Earl Howe | 731 c717 (Link to this contribution) The trouble with that is that we are straying into the mechanics and the detail of the education and...

Earl Howe | 731 c717 (Link to this contribution) I know that is the noble Lord’s concern and of course I understand it. However, it is the policy of ...

Earl Howe | 731 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State could act if Health Education England was failing in its functions. Our visio...

Lord Owen | 731 c717 (Link to this contribution) This is a crucial question. The word failure is extreme. A lot of us worry that waiting for failure ...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 731 c716 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend was a little cursory in dealing with Amendment 44 and the criticisms made by the nob...

Earl Howe | 731 c716 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot speak for Amendment 44, which is not the government amendment; but I can speak fo...

Lord Warner | 731 c716 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow, but he has been interrupted, so I thought I would ask m...

Earl Howe | 731 c712 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will be aware that we have had two Oral Questions recently that have covered this po...

Lord Cotter | 731 c712 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much. As usual he was addressing the issues. I hope that by highlighting t...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c712 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the view that this is an extremely important issue. It is also extremely difficu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 731 c712-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as this is the first day of a new stage of the Bill, I am required to start by declaring m...

Lord Alderdice | 731 c708-9 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, just a little late, but there we are. The point is that when we think of medicine and nursing...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c709 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may briefly intervene to try better to clarify my concerns. I am not asking that...

Lord Alderdice | 731 c707 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not wish to repeat what other noble Lords have said very eloquently, but there are on...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 731 c708 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think it was in 1999 that I was converted, alas.

Lord Cotter | 731 c711-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like others, I should declare an interest. My father was a GP and my wife an occupational ...

Lord Alderdice | 731 c709-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I say, I understand the sentiments that the noble Baroness is trying to convey, but one...

Baroness Emerton | 731 c705-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise as the one nurse here. The debate so far is music to my ears but it would be even m...

Baroness Jolly | 731 c706-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems that we are now getting an outbreak of agreement that there should be a duty on t...

Lord Warner | 731 c705 (Link to this contribution) I ought to make clear that I was not launching an attack on the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, with whom ...

Lord Winston | 731 c697-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may be permitted to tella very minor story. In the 1960s, I was in an NHS teaching hospita...

Lord Mawhinney | 731 c699 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is hard to think of any group of people in this country who have had the opportunity to...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c700-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I am the first person to speak in this section of our proceedings this afternoon w...

Baroness Tonge | 731 c701-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not have an answer for the noble Lord, but I am as horrified as he is that education and traini...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c702 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with the noble Baroness on that. If I have to speculate again, the only hypothesis...

Lord Kakkar | 731 c702-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Walton of Detchant ...

Lord Warner | 731 c703-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendments 2, 6 and 44 in particular in this group. However, I am sympathetic to...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c705 (Link to this contribution) I should just like to acknowledge that the references that I made earlier were to wave 1. I fully re...

Lord Winston | 731 c697 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was interested to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, thought that the Chamber was f...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c697 (Link to this contribution) I take the distinct hint that it is time to conclude my remarks. I merely wish to say that we have a...

Lord Patel | 731 c690-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is added to this amendment along with that of the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detch...

Lord Winston | 731 c697 (Link to this contribution) I had no intention of interrupting the noble Lord. I merely thought that he was concluding his remar...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes her case but there is a wide spectrum of medical provision, and the questio...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c696 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me but, as someone who works hugely in the voluntary sector and is a patron of many of the h...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c696 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point, although it might be difficult to implement when you consider the third sector ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c696 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask for clarification from the noble Lord. I am not sure whether he is advocating that...

Lord Turnberg | 731 c693-5 (Link to this contribution) In speaking to these amendments, I am conscious that we are hamstrung by the fact that we have an ed...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c691-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, but noble Lords who have looked at them will have not...

Lord Bichard | 731 c673 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the suggestion that we should set out at the beginning of the Bill the val...

Baroness Barker | 731 c673-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I looked at the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, had put his ...

Lord Owen | 731 c674-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the proposed new clause. It is not perfect, but that is not the issue. What we a...

Earl of Listowel | 731 c676 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord aware of the report commissioned by the Government and published last year, led by...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 731 c676-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall not detain you long. I cannot resist—given that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, was in ...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c677-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin a very brief set of remarks by apologising to the House, and especially to my nobl...

Lord Alderdice | 731 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree considerably with the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that some o...

Earl Howe | 731 c679-83 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Baroness for introducing these first two amendments in our C...

Baroness Thornton | 731 c683-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It is a very useful start to t...

Baroness Thornton | 731 c684-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl set up, and then knocked down, a series of Aunt Sallies about the market, about how t...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 731 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is nothing like suggesting to a House of Lords Committee that we move on to encourag...

Earl of Listowel | 731 c666-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for this debate on the primacy of patient care. I...

Baroness Donaghy | 731 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment for three reasons. I will be brief, bearing in mind the comments ...

Lord Rea | 731 c665 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have spent most of my professional life working in the National Health Service. I have a...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c669-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in 1946, the then Government promoted the National Health Service. They did so in the Nati...

Lord Peston | 731 c671-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend Lady Thornton. I suffer from the disadvantage that it seem...

Lord Mawhinney | 731 c667-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hennessey, started by reminding us that preambles have somewhat gone ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 731 c668-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been said that if you do not know where you have come from, you do not know where y...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c672 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Mawhinney for referring to the words, ““motherhood a...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c672-3 (Link to this contribution) At least the noble Lord recognises that it was something that happened, and that it was a market. It...

Lord Peston | 731 c672 (Link to this contribution) I was not a Minister in that Government, so I do not have to defend them.

Lord Walton of Detchant | 731 c688-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was locked out. As the spirit of reminiscence is in the air, I greatly enjoyed listening...

Lord Patel | 731 c688 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall just say something while I wait for my noble friend Lord Walton. My name is to Ame...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 731 c688 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 2, line 1, at end insert— ““(c) in the provision of education and training of the ...

Earl Howe | 731 c685 (Link to this contribution) It is, my Lords, because Amendment 52 does not repeat the NHS Constitution. Ninety per cent of the p...

Baroness Thornton | 731 c685 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is Parliament. We can take a decision. It is not about changing the NHS Constitution....

Earl Howe | 731 c685 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Baroness saying that the NHS Constitution needs to change by virtue of her amendments?

Baroness Thornton | 731 c685 (Link to this contribution) No, that is not what the amendment says.

Baroness Murphy | 731 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one cannot help but be moved by the commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. In view o...

Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield | 731 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having suggested during the Second Reading debate that your Lordships might consider the v...

Baroness D'Souza | 731 c659 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I point out to the Committee that in line 8 of the amendment, there is a misprint. ““Must ...

Baroness Thornton | 731 c659 (Link to this contribution) 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Principles of the Health Service in England (...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 731 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I briefly address the proposal put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton? She h...

Baroness Thornton | 731 c659-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Lord Speaker for making that correction and assure the Committee that the corr...

Baroness Jolly | 731 c664 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not intend to take an awful lot of your time with my comments. I agree with many comm...

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 731 c737 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not think that the noble Lord is being unfair. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Newt...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c737-8 (Link to this contribution) I strongly supported and continue to support that, which is very reflective in ensuring that we do r...

Lord Warner | 731 c736-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a bit confused as to whether we are making speeches or asking questions of the noble ...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c737 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am once again tempted, in this case by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, with whose views I a...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c739 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great attention to the noble Lord and took on board what he said. Of course, the pos...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c739 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I was distracted.

Baroness Thornton | 731 c738 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to intervene, but the problem we face is that this Bill does precisely what the...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c738-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for not sitting down, but it may be obvious to the House tha...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c739 (Link to this contribution) Monitor has extended responsibilities—and, importantly, a much clearer remit to be concerned with th...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c739 (Link to this contribution) Monitor under the Bill will have vastly more powers than it had. As a result, the situation is not e...

Lord Warner | 731 c742 (Link to this contribution) I cannot resist responding to that. I do not accept that position. I was trying to say that what the...

Lord Owen | 731 c742-3 (Link to this contribution) When we look at what has been said, we will have a better idea. As the Bill unfolds in all its compl...

Lord Mawhinney | 731 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to associate my initial remarks entirely with what my noble friend Lord Newton has ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c739-40 (Link to this contribution) Yes, precisely; I tried to say that when I referred to the 2006 Act. The passage in the 1946 Act on ...

Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield | 731 c740 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at Second Reading, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, indicated that he wished to put the constitu...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 731 c740-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the House because at Second Reading I inadvertently failed to declare an in...

Lord Owen | 731 c742 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate and it has certainly taken the arguments further. I do ...

Baroness Hollins | 731 c739 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I seek clarification. I am very sympathetic to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness,...

Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe | 731 c744-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak but I feel quite anxious that we are contemplating the prospec...

Baroness Cumberlege | 731 c746 (Link to this contribution) That is true up to a point, but can you imagine, when the Secretary of State receives that informati...

Baroness Northover | 731 c746 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as agreed earlier, it now being nine o’clock, I beg to move that the House be now resumed....

Baroness Cumberlege | 731 c745-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the first time that I have entered this Committee debate, so I declare an interest...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 731 c746 (Link to this contribution) But surely that simply states that there shall be a requirement to provide information. It does not ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 731 c735 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the noble Baroness’s question is this. The quotation of the noble and learned Lord, Lo...

Baroness Northover | 731 c726 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given that there is no dinner hour business tonight, we have agreed that instead of breaki...

Lord Mawhinney | 731 c720 (Link to this contribution) I want to go back to what my noble friend said about the Government committing themselves to a natio...

Earl of Listowel | 731 c710-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am reminded by this debate of my experience 10 years ago when visiting a hostel for youn...

Lord Ribeiro | 731 c695-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Patel, for introducing this amen...

Earl Howe | 731 c684 (Link to this contribution) The difference was that in the 2009 Act I gave way to those arguments.

Lord Newton of Braintree | 731 c743 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, to use the classic formula, perhaps I may take the opport...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 731 c735 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to make an intervention.

Earl Howe | 731 c714-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Walton, for introducing his amendment, which began this debat...

Subjects

Accountability

Health

Health services

Finance

Education

Health professions

NHS

Ministerial powers

Staff

Registration

Standards

Training

Reform

Research

Monitor

NHS Commissioning Board

Health Education England

Medical Education England

Legislation

Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

Session

Department

Legislative stage

Procedure

Chamber / Committee

Related items

Proceeding contributions

Subjects

Legislation

Link

Librarians' tools