Political Parties and Elections Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Schedule 2 agreed to. Clauses 4 to 9 agreed to, with clauses 7 and 8 agreed to as amended. New clauses (Amendments 79 and 89) debated and withdrawn. Schedule 3 agreed to as amended. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Political Parties and Elections Bill
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
710 c105-66GCSession
2008-09Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand CommitteeRelated items
Political Parties and Elections Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 26-EN also published.
Tuesday, 3 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Tuesday, 3 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I take that point and I understand that it is always possible for someone to use information that th...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c123GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend used the key word "approval". It may well be that a recommendation comes through, an...
Show all contributions (132)
Lord Henley | 710 c117-8GC (Link to this contribution)
We broadly support Clause 5 as it is, and in doing so, support subsection (3), which we are largely ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
We, too, very much support this amendment, along similar lines to the noble Baroness. I am not sure ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c130GC (Link to this contribution)
I keep thinking of the Damian Green affair, where a civil servant had come straight from a political...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may respond to the issue of how difficult it is to prove recklessness. That is quite prope...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 83, 87 and 88 relate only to Clause 8, the requirement for a declaration as to the source...
Lord Bach | 710 c156GC (Link to this contribution)
For the record, the Rowntree report that I was talking about—it is easy to get them confused—is not ...
Lord Henley | 710 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution)
That is not a matter for me to address at this stage. I noted what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c148GC (Link to this contribution)
I am listening with great interest to the noble Lord, but does he accept that that principle has bee...
Lord Henley | 710 c147GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will not be surprised to learn that he does not have my suppo...
Lord Bach | 710 c141GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to both noble Lords for supporting this part of the Bill and the government amendments...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c128GC (Link to this contribution)
My point was not that someone would be in a politically sensitive role all the time, but that people...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c129GC (Link to this contribution)
I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots.
Lord Henley | 710 c110GC (Link to this contribution)
Again, the noble Lord’s argument seems to be that we must follow the precedent of an earlier Act—in ...
Lord Bach | 710 c111GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendments would slightly alter the language used to describe the circumstances in which the com...
Lord Henley | 710 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendment 71. The amendments are designed to stimulate a brief discussion on e...
Lord Rennard | 710 c109GC (Link to this contribution)
I understand why the Electoral Commission opposes this amendment. It suggests that it may ultimately...
Lord Bach | 710 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution)
We understand the desire that the commission should act in a timely manner. We all wish to see the c...
Lord Bach | 710 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendments seek to amend the paragraphs of this part of the schedule that define the circumstanc...
Lord Haskel | 710 c106GC (Link to this contribution)
I have to tell the Committee that if Amendment 47 is agreed I cannot call Amendment 48 because of pr...
Lord Haskel | 710 c105GC (Link to this contribution)
I have to tell the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Co...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 6: Number of Electoral Commissioners
Debate on whether Clause 6 should stand part of the Bil...
Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
I raise one point that has not been touched on. I have considerable sympathy with the substance of p...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend said that commissioners are expected to act in "a non-partisan way". He did not mana...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
I said, although I may have mumbled it, that the commission staff make decisions on penalties, seeki...
Lord Borrie | 710 c118-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I offer a few words before the Minister responds. Like my noble friend Lady Gould, I agree with so m...
Lord Tyler | 710 c112-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I should remind the Grand Committee, as I mentioned at Second Reading, that although I do not have a...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c117GC (Link to this contribution)
I want to ask a very simple question. With the permission of the Committee, I shall do so now so as ...
Lord Bach | 710 c136GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very surprised that the Committee is seriously proposing that we should add to, rather than tak...
Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
I am tempted to ask the Minister whether he recognises that he is speaking out loud. I am very grate...
Lord Tyler | 710 c136-7GC (Link to this contribution)
But surely in such circumstances all the Secretary of State has to do is to say, "This report does n...
Lord Bach | 710 c136GC (Link to this contribution)
There are some commission reports to which it is not necessary for the Government to respond.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c132GC (Link to this contribution)
I have a problem with the last comment. I know many people who are interested in that aspect of elec...
Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c133-4GC (Link to this contribution)
The Electoral Commission is required by Section 6 of the 2000 Act to keep under review and from time...
Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c133GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 79
79: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause—
"Reports of Electoral Commission
...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c134-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment. It is absolutely right that if, in fact, the Electoral Commission has been ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall be brief but perhaps marginally more controversial. I completely support the amendment, alth...
Lord Tyler | 710 c130-1GC (Link to this contribution)
That is a formidable point and it reflects the one that I made about enforcement. The commission has...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c130GC (Link to this contribution)
I am extremely grateful. The noble Lord raised the question of enforcement. I understand the point a...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c131GC (Link to this contribution)
Any member of the commission staff doing any task must act impartially. The power in this clause is ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c131GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may put a scenario to my noble friend. This is a real world question. Imagine a young soci...
Lord Tyler | 710 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may briefly respond. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, has a great deal more experience than I ...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
My intervention will be extremely brief. I did not table an amendment to this effect, but does the n...
Lord Henley | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
I take note of what the Minister said, but I am buoyed up by the fact that both the noble Lords, Lor...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
In view of what has been said, I support the second two amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Henley. R...
Lord Henley | 710 c156-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendments 87 and 88. We now move on to what will be new Section 54A, which is...
Lord Tyler | 710 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure whether the Minister intended to complete his remarks, but could he address the import...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I have no difficulty at all in recognising that fact. It is obviously worth referring to in the cont...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I think that they will be far more interested in what the Minister said as against what I said. It i...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
If I had still been in the elected House, I would have voted against it and spoken against it with p...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, would regard it as a betrayal of a confid...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c149GC (Link to this contribution)
I recognise the powerful, if emotional, appeal made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Some a...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 710 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the Minister rises, I have been reminded of one more question for the noble Lord, Lord Campbe...
Lord Henley | 710 c148GC (Link to this contribution)
It might have been blown to smithereens on that one point but it still exists here. It is a valid po...
Lord Tyler | 710 c140GC (Link to this contribution)
There was a moment of considerable concern in my mind because I was anxious that we should not proce...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
I have Amendment 76 in this grouping. I begin by apologising to the Committee for not having been he...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c124-7GC (Link to this contribution)
In moving this amendment, I shall also speak to Amendments 77 and 78. I have a short, non-controvers...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
I think I mean the chairman, but maybe the chief executive has the final call. Do either of them hav...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c128GC (Link to this contribution)
First, I should say how much I appreciate the fact that the Government have picked up the point that...
Lord Henley | 710 c110GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 72
72: Schedule 2, page 44, line 43, after "their" insert "reasonable"
Lord Henley | 710 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution)
We now come to the end of this batch of opposition amendments. In moving Amendment 72, I shall also ...
Lord Henley | 710 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister. I understand clearly that if one puts "promptly" in one piece of legi...
Lord Henley | 710 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall not be moving the two other amendments in this group—Amendments 60B and 62—as I think that w...
Lord Henley | 710 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 60A
60A: Schedule 2, page 35, line 41, after "shall" insert "promptly"
Lord Henley | 710 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution)
In the absence of my noble friend Lord Bates, I shall be moving the Conservative amendments today. I...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
There are several things that we will need to put in a letter, particularly the delicate points that...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c117GC (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend, who has great experience in these matters, referred to guidance. Do we not need a l...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c117GC (Link to this contribution)
That is an important point. There may have to be occasions when the commission does not participate....
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 710 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I have a little problem with the amendment. It is not that I disagree with it, because in a sense I ...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Gould. We are extremely fortunate that she is serv...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 710 c136GC (Link to this contribution)
In the briefing which the commission has given us for this amendment, there is an indication that th...
Lord Bach | 710 c136GC (Link to this contribution)
But what an added piece of bureaucracy to have to respond within six months. It is small but signifi...
Lord Bach | 710 c137-8GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I could go on to what I considered my strongest point, which is that such a shift risks seri...
Lord Norton of Louth | 710 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the Minister’s response. He has listened to the Committee. I think it is worth rei...
Lord Bach | 710 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot help but have heard the strong arguments around the Committee on this issue. Although I hav...
Lord Tyler | 710 c130GC (Link to this contribution)
Again, I understand the noble Lord’s point, but whether that individual had been immune from direct ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution)
I wish to make a brief contribution. We, too, see the logic of clarifying these issues and we very m...
Lord Henley | 710 c129GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may make one or two brief comments. We are sympathetic to these government amendments, but...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c131-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may press the Minister a little further. There are concerns around this issue and the nobl...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c131GC (Link to this contribution)
I have little to add to what I have said but it is important to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould...
Lord Bach | 710 c166GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 95
95: Schedule 3, page 46, leave out lines 41 and 42
Amendment 95 agreed.
Amendment 96...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c166GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until next Tuesday at 3.30 pm.
Lord Bach | 710 c165GC (Link to this contribution)
Schedule 3: Declaration as to source of donation
Amendment 91
91: Schedule 3, page 46, line 20, le...
Lord Tyler | 710 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marland, in particular, because I know that we share a gr...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c162-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I must say that officials and ourselves had also read the amendment as implying that it would apply ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c160GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 89
89: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
"Donations by companies controlle...
Lord Rennard | 710 c157GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendments in this group do not really find favour with me. Amendment 83 would cause confusion w...
Lord Borrie | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord sits down, would he not agree that the word "reckless" implies that you do not...
Lord Henley | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
I will certainly look at that in due course. The third amendment is the most important. I always wor...
Lord Bach | 710 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
I have an answer for the noble Lord: if donations which are above the recordable threshold of £500 u...
Lord Bach | 710 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
I suspect that Members of Parliament may also want to read what the noble Lord said.
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may intervene. As Ministers would say, "It is not in my brief to reply on issues of Europe...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c147GC (Link to this contribution)
How would we manage to regulate a multiplicity of £50,000 donations coming in from some obscure part...
Lord Henley | 710 c140GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for speaking to the government amendments and for touching on our Amen...
Lord Bach | 710 c139GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 8: Declaration as to source of donation
Amendment 80
80: Clause 8, page 6, line 6, leave ou...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be a convenient point for the Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes.
Sitting suspended.
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
Did the noble Lord mean to say the chairman of the commission or the chief executive?
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 710 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that—he has the final call. My issue relates to subsection (3) of the new section....
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
The final decision lies with the chief executive under the clause.
Lord Henley | 710 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord took a stronger line on the second amendment, rather than on the first. I was perfect...
Lord Henley | 710 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 61
61: Schedule 2, page 36, leave out lines 28 and 29
Lord Bach | 710 c109-10GC (Link to this contribution)
This amendment and Amendment 71 grouped with it both relate to provisions in the Bill for the commis...
Lord Henley | 710 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for that explanation from the noble Lord. If I heard him correctly at the beginning—pe...
Lord Henley | 710 c105GC (Link to this contribution)
Schedule 2: Civil sanctions: Schedule to be inserted into the 2000 Act
Amendment 47
47: Schedule 2...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Political restrictions on Electoral Commissioners and staff
Amendment 75
75: Clause 7, p...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c119-21GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for this interesting debate, particularly the story of the conversion of the nob...
Lord Tyler | 710 c121-3GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been a very useful debate and, at the very least, it will help to inform all those who may ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. We do not have that guidance from the Minister. He may feel that it...
Lord Tyler | 710 c112GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 5: Four Electoral Commissioners to be persons put forward by parties
Amendment 74
74: Claus...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 77 and 78
77: Clause 7, page 5, line 41, at end insert—
"11B(1) The chief executive of t...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 710 c132GC (Link to this contribution)
I have nothing to add at this point.
Amendment 75 agreed.
Amendment 76 not moved.
Lord Bach | 710 c135-6GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendment would require the Secretary of State to provide a written response to reports issued b...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c136GC (Link to this contribution)
Under subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, I presume that the Government could reply and say t...
Lord Bach | 710 c165GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 93
93: Schedule 3, page 46, line 26, leave out from first "a" to "by" in line 28 and inse...
Lord Marland | 710 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for arriving late at the Committee. I also apologise for taking noble Lords beyond four ...
Lord Tyler | 710 c160-2GC (Link to this contribution)
We do not need to spend a great deal of time on this matter because to some extent we have covered i...
Lord Henley | 710 c159GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 85
85: Clause 8, page 6, leave out lines 37 to 40
Amendment 85 agreed.
Amendments 86 to...
Lord Henley | 710 c158-9GC (Link to this contribution)
At this stage, I can do nothing other than withdraw it. However, I am not happy with that response. ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c156GC (Link to this contribution)
The reference to the interflow of data between various organisations within government appears in th...
Lord Henley | 710 c156GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 83
83: Clause 8, page 6, line 16, leave out "best of the individual’s" and insert "indivi...
Lord Bach | 710 c151-4GC (Link to this contribution)
The intention behind Amendments 82 and 84 is to seek to tie the ability of an individual to make a p...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend for his comments. I do not want to be rude to noble Lords, but I sh...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
My proposal provides for a stronger threshold than simply being on the electoral roll.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 710 c149GC (Link to this contribution)
In that case, I was not sufficiently familiar with the Bill. I hope not to irritate my erstwhile Con...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 710 c148GC (Link to this contribution)
As a fundraiser for the UK Independence Party, I find these amendments inconvenient. However, I also...
Lord Tyler | 710 c145-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I and my noble friend Lord Rennard have added our names to Amendments 82 and 84 for a number of reas...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c141GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 82
82: Clause 8, page 6, line 8, at end insert—
"(1A) In section 54 of the 2000 Act (perm...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 710 c141-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that I shall spend a little more time on this amendment. I have tried to be brief on oth...
Lord Bach | 710 c139-40GC (Link to this contribution)
In moving Amendment 80, I shall speak also to Amendments 85, 91, 93 and 95, which propose altering C...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 710 c139GC (Link to this contribution)
If Amendment 80 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 81 because of pre-emption.
Subjects
Librarians' tools
Timestamp
2024-02-08 19:22:21 +0000
URI
http://data.parliament.uk/pimsdata/hansard/PROCEEDING_77277
In Indexing
http://indexing.parliament.uk/Content/Edit/1?uri=http://data.parliament.uk/pimsdata/hansard/PROCEEDING_77277
In Solr
https://search.parliament.uk/claw/solr/?id=http://data.parliament.uk/pimsdata/hansard/PROCEEDING_77277