Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill (HL). Lords Report stage first day.
Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL]
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
709 c661-721,730-54Session
2008-09Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill (HL). As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 10 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Tuesday, 10 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Avebury | 709 c664 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 2 (to Amendment 1)
2: Before Clause 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) to (4) and inser...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c662-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we had an interesting debate on this amendment in Committee but I am still at a loss to un...
Show all contributions (151)
Baroness Hanham | 709 c661-2 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 1
1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
"Establishment of UK Border Police...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 709 c665 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 2, as an amendment to Amendment 1, because it is pre...
Lord Avebury | 709 c664-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness’s concluding remark that there is a need for more consulta...
Lord Dear | 709 c665-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in rising to speak to these amendments, I do not intend, with your Lordships’ agreement, t...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 709 c667 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to add my voice to the proposal from both of the Front Benches opposite for ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 709 c667 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, I, too, strongly support the aim of th...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c667-70 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for th...
Viscount Slim | 709 c667 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I suppose I should declare that I have some slight experience of crossing borders unnotice...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c671-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank everybody who has taken part in the debate. It has provided an extra dimension to ...
Lord Avebury | 709 c670-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are very grateful to the Minister for not ruling out the ultimate creation of a unified...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c672-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 3, 4, 5, 6, 14, 15 and 63 are related and I will take them together. I shall sp...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c672 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 1: General customs functions of the Secretary of State
Amendment 3
3: Clause 1, page 1, lin...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c674-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation. I should like to take a straw poll across the H...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c689 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 19A
19A: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause—
"Use of personal data of UK ci...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c689 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed reply. It will be helpful to have on the record wha...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c687-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baronesses have rightly homed in on the important area of training. Clause 12 se...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c686-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I very much support this amendment. We had considerable discussion about this in Committee...
Lord Puttnam | 709 c690 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for not having spoken in any earlier part of this Bill, but I think that the n...
Lord Hylton | 709 c691 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment is very important, bearing as it does on our freedom of movement and travel...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c689-90 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, recent publicity has drawn attention to the information that will be required by the UK Bo...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c690 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling this amendment to discuss further this imp...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 709 c691 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is my first intervention and probably my last on this Bill but, when I saw this amend...
Lord Marlesford | 709 c691 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment, spoken to so ably by my noble friend and the noble Baroness from the Liber...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c691-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, information is obviously an essential tool in support of law enforcement and national secu...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c693 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that is quite a difficult question which I need to think about a little more carefully. Ca...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c693 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, can the Minister clarify one thing? He says that there is no intention to stop people trav...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c693-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, absolutely. This would not apply to travel between, say, England, Scotland and Wales. As I...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 709 c693 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that there is no intention to extend these measures to internal t...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c694 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. He has probably missed a golden opportunity to say exa...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c694 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 20
20: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
"UK Border Agency detention
In t...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c694-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall be quite quick with this, and I hope that the Minister will accept it; it is strai...
Lord Avebury | 709 c695-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment seeks to limit the time that a person can be held in a UK Border Agency off...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c696-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment would impact the UK Border Agency’s operational effectiveness, and I must r...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c675 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for those comments but I still think that the list that was given t...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c675 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was trying not to dismiss it but I thought that the noble Baroness’s amendment was seeki...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 709 c678-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 7, I shall speak also to Amendments 8, 9 to 12 and 16 to 18. In p...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 709 c679-80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendments. As she rightly says, we have been approached by th...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c678 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 4 and 5
4: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, after "section" insert "—(a)"
5: Clause 1, page ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 709 c678 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 3: Designation of general customs officials
Amendment 7
7: Clause 3, page 3, line 17, leave...
Lord Avebury | 709 c676-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we recognise that but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, pointed out, they are not acces...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c677-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, may I take away the issue of the letters and how we may make them available to the public?...
Lord Avebury | 709 c675 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we listened carefully to what the Minister said and we understand that what is now propose...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c675-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, all the letters that have been sent are available in the Library. The noble Lord and the n...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c680-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is by joining up our powers, assets, skills and people in one organisation that we can ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 709 c681 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that full reply and for his reassurances about contractors and...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c685 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Customs revenue functions of the Director
Amendment 14
14: Clause 7, page 6, line 10, le...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c685 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 19
19: Clause 12, page 8, line 43, at end insert—
"( ) "Adequate training" means training...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c685-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we return to the matter of training; in Committee we talked about what adequate training w...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c682 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in Committee we discussed what the Director of Border Revenue would do and who that person...
Lord Avebury | 709 c682-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we do not think that it would be appropriate for the Director of Border Revenue to be appr...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c683-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is anticipated that the Director of Border Revenue and the chief executive of the borde...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c684-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply and his robustness to the message from th...
Lord Hylton | 709 c712 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, for seeing me with his officials s...
Lord Hylton | 709 c712 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 39: Application requirements: general
24: Clause 39, page 29, line 19, after "has" insert "r...
Lord Brett | 709 c707-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will leave the question of the JCHR report for a moment. We are seeking to resist the am...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 709 c709 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, on a matter of procedure, I realise that we are at a late stage in the Bill, as we are on ...
Lord Brett | 709 c709 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important and helpful suggestion, and I think we should seek to ma...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c709-10 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister again for his reply, although it was not very helpful. I am extremely...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c705 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 23A
23A: Before Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
"Exceptions to application of...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c705-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the principle behind this proposed new clause, which would be inserted before Clause 39, i...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 709 c706 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps noble Lords have had a chance to see the ninth report of the Joint Committee on Hu...
Lord Avebury | 709 c707 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I welcome the fact that my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill has drawn attention to t...
Lord Avebury | 709 c704-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for that comprehensive reply, although it raises some further anxiety ...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c703-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I asked exactly the same question this morning when I was being briefed. The role of the m...
Lord Avebury | 709 c703 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, who will do that? Can the Minister tell us?
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, can the Minister bear in mind that what we have been talking about in relation to three ho...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will certainly do that.
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I understand it, "short-term" relates to the facility in which we keep people for the s...
Lord Avebury | 709 c700-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment ensures IPCC oversight of the exercise of immigration and customs functions...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c701-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Clause 30 extends the existing regulatory making power given to the Secretary of State in ...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to have had this debate because it was important to have done so. I will be ...
Lord Avebury | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 30: Complaints and misconduct
Amendment 22
22: Clause 30, page 23, line 26, at end insert—
...
Lord Avebury | 709 c698 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have a problem here. Under Section 2 of the UK Borders Act 2007, an immigration officer...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c698 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it will be six hours in total. Of course, HMRC and the old BIA are now one body. It will b...
Lord Hylton | 709 c699 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, is what the Minister said about five and seven days the meaning of "short-term" holding? I...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c698-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope I can clarify this a little. The three hours relate to waiting for the police to co...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c697 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but we might be able to get an answer on this poin...
Lord Hylton | 709 c697 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, when the Minister replies, could he also say what is meant by "short-term holding facility...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c697 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps the Minister would confirm that an immigration officer or a customs officer is ent...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 709 c698 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Clause 22(6) states: ""A person may be transferred—""(a) between UK Border Agency detentio...
Lord Hylton | 709 c754 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not wish to move the amendment unless the Minister wishes to make a statement on it.
...
Lord Hylton | 709 c752 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 37
37: Clause 41, page 34, line 33, at end insert—
"(6) In the case of an applicant with ...
Lord Hylton | 709 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have spoken briefly to the amendment, but I want to move it now as I would like to hear ...
Lord Brett | 709 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, with the lateness of the hour I shall be succinct. We believe that all citizens who seek t...
Lord Hylton | 709 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not very satisfied with that reply but it is all I shall get tonight. I beg leave to ...
Lord Brett | 709 c751 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness asked a very good question, and I do not know the answer. In essence, I...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c751 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, can I clarify one detail? If there is no adequate scheme available for an individual migra...
Lord Brett | 709 c749-51 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I appreciate the contributions that have been made. I heard some of these points made in g...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 709 c748-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am afraid that I, too, am very sceptical about this volunteering scheme. At Second Readi...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 709 c748 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I suggest that this needs to be looked at very thoroughly. It is a nice, good, warm idea, ...
Lord Avebury | 709 c747-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, like my noble friend, I was impressed by the Volunteering England briefing. I hope that th...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c745-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 36 and the amendments consequential upon it in this group.
The...
Earl of Sandwich | 709 c747 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I feel sorry for the Minister, as the Government are on a very sticky wicket here. He said...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 709 c745 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I must inform the House that, if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 36, b...
Lord Avebury | 709 c736 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am a little encouraged. The noble Lord said that a person in tier 2 can be out of work f...
Lord Brett | 709 c737 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have some difficulty in a sense. I was trying to signal that in the current employment s...
Lord Avebury | 709 c735 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the final remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Brett, that the Government will carefully co...
Lord Brett | 709 c735 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I want to offer at least my personal reassurance that when I used the term "consider caref...
Lord Avebury | 709 c735-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that is a bit stronger than what the noble Lord said before, and I take some reassurance f...
Lord Brett | 709 c736 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am slightly surprised by those last comments because I thought that the concerns of nobl...
Lord Avebury | 709 c733 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 26
26: Clause 39, page 29, line 25, leave out "been in continuous employment" and insert ...
Lord Avebury | 709 c733 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in Committee we tried, with only partial success, to clarify what the Bill means by "in co...
Lord Brett | 709 c733-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, pointed out, this amendment replicates the amendment we d...
Lord Brett | 709 c731-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I appreciate the contributions by both noble Baronesses. I recall in Committee being upbra...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c730 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have tabled this amendment so that we have another opportunity to discuss probationary ...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c730-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment, because we need some clarity on what just changing names does. I ...
Lord Brett | 709 c721 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as it is 7.26 pm, and both the Front Benches have now been going for some time and with so...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c730 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 25
25: Clause 39, page 29, line 19, leave out "probationary citizenship leave" and insert...
Lord Brett | 709 c720 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was saying that guidance will be developed; I thought that I was clear on that point, if...
Lord Hylton | 709 c720-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, with regard to Amendment 24, I am extremely grateful to at least five of your Lordships, i...
Lord Brett | 709 c720 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I explained in Committee, the Government sought to meet the concerns raised by the Libe...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 709 c720 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in answering that question from the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, is the Minister saying that t...
Lord Marlesford | 709 c742-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate. I can reassure everyone, inc...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c743 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 28 to 30
28: Clause 39, page 29, line 38, at end insert—
""(ba) treat the applicant as f...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c743 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 40: Application requirements: family members etc.
33: Clause 40, page 33, line 7, at end ins...
Lord Hylton | 709 c743 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I have asked for before, could we have an explanation of the precise effect of the five...
Lord Brett | 709 c743 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am more than happy to write the noble Lord and explain the amendments in greater detail,...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c743 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 34
34: Clause 40, page 33, line 8, leave out from "the" to "where" in line 10 and insert ...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c744-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I return to a subject we have already discussed in Committee. So far as the citizenship re...
Lord Brett | 709 c742 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the practical difficulties extend a little beyond my original answer. The amendment calls,...
Viscount Slim | 709 c742 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. Surely we are looking at the making of citizenship....
Lord Brett | 709 c741-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this interesting mini-debate. I pa...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c739 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Marlesford, who has produced a serious argument in favour o...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 709 c739 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree. I support my noble kinsman on this point, because as usual he is very knowledgeab...
Lord Marlesford | 709 c737 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 27
27: Clause 39, page 29, line 29, at end insert—
"(g) that A must declare whether he or...
Lord Marlesford | 709 c737-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, earlier we were discussing the tidal flow of information that the Home Office was arrangin...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 709 c741 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, three years ago we introduced personal passport interviews for folk applying for a passpor...
Lord Hylton | 709 c741 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not think that, when discussing this amendment, we should be too concerned about peop...
Lord Avebury | 709 c739-40 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree that it is a very interesting idea. It comes from a noble Lord who is full of inte...
Lord Glentoran | 709 c740 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am a little concerned about this amendment; care should be taken because, like the noble...
Lord Avebury | 709 c737 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have probably gone as far as we can on this issue this evening. I am grateful to the no...
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 709 c713-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in supporting this amendment from these Benches, I should say that our whole reputation is...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 709 c712-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in supporting the general approach to all these amendments, perhaps I may draw attention t...
Lord Brett | 709 c716-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will try to respond to all items in this group, including the government amendments. I w...
Baroness Stern | 709 c716 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, on the one hand one must be grateful to the Government for tabling some amendments in resp...
Lord Avebury | 709 c714-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 32 is of the same mind as the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. W...
Earl of Sandwich | 709 c714 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have looked at cols. 531-33 of the Official Report on 2 March. The Minister gave my nobl...
Lord Brett | 709 c719-20 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it depends on how that period of time is defined and whether it is defined as the excess p...
Lord Avebury | 709 c718 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but will he say something about how the discretion...
Lord Brett | 709 c718 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the short and simple answer to the question put by the noble Lord is that the UKBA has set...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 709 c718 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Will he explain what incentives are to ...
Lord Hylton | 709 c753 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 41
41: Clause 41, page 35, line 19, at end insert—
"( ) For the avoidance of doubt, the q...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c744 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 41: The qualifying period
Amendment 35
35: Clause 41, page 34, line 19, leave out from "per...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c682 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 6: The Director of Border Revenue
Amendment 13
13: Clause 6, page 5, line 6, leave out subs...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c697 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I understand it, unless the Box tells me I am wrong, the Police and Criminal Evidence A...
Lord West of Spithead | 709 c697-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there is confusion here. The three-hour limit is the power in Section 2 of the UK Borders ...
Baroness Hanham | 709 c751-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply; unfortunately, most of the questions still remain. It ...
Lord Hylton | 709 c720 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Minister has, no doubt, done a very good job in resisting my amendment, but I invite h...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 709 c733 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for a positive run-through of how the Government see the situation. H...
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