UK Parliament / Open data

Health Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 11 March 2009, in the House of Lords.
Health Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage sixth day. clauses 23 to 31 agreed to, with clauses 26 and 29 agreed to as amended. Schedule 4 agreed to. Schedule 5 agreed to as amended. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

708 c439-98GC 

Session

2008-09

Department

Department of Health

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Health Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 18-EN also published. (Lords Minutes).
Thursday, 15 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1530
Wednesday, 11 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1562
Wednesday, 11 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1561
Wednesday, 11 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (5)
Deposited Paper DEP2009-1560
Wednesday, 11 March 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Golding | 708 c444-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way for the moment. Do we want nothing on the packages? Then why have the Gov...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c446GC (Link to this contribution) Can we establish that the clause does not say "have to", but "may", following consultation?

Show all contributions (154)
Lord Borrie | 708 c445-6GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, oppose the amendment. It is a formidable amendment with a formidable array of sponsors, only...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c451GC (Link to this contribution) In the light of the well informed comments from the noble Lords, Lord Borrie and Lord Naseby, would ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c456-7GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment would provide powers to introduce a wholly new approach to the sale of tobacco in thi...
Lord Naseby | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord made an intervention on my good self. The noble Lord quite rightly says that he is no...
Baroness Northover | 708 c457-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 107 and 107B, which are in my name and those of other noble Lords. Amend...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c483-4GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 114B and 115A to 115E. Clause 26 adds a new section after Section 1...
Earl Howe | 708 c487GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has made a good point in sounding a warning that patients might, as...
Earl Howe | 708 c498GC (Link to this contribution) I can tell that the Minister just wants to be different —and why not? I note in passing that whereas...
Earl Howe | 708 c491GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 5: Investigation of complaints about privately arranged or funded adult social care Amendm...
Baroness Barker | 708 c492-3GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 118 and 119 are grouped with that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Before I speak to them, I...
Earl Howe | 708 c491-2GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 117 and 120. These are probing amendments, which I can cover quite ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c493-6GC (Link to this contribution) I will address Amendments 116, 117 and 120 tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and Amendments 118 a...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 708 c497-8GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend speaks to his amendments, the expectation is that this may be the last group ...
Lord Patel | 708 c457GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response. The amendment is intended to help retailers, not make their l...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the noble Lord at all. One of the effects of having a positive licensing system ...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c455GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree that it is Parliament’s duty to protect people’s individual rights, but Parliament...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c455GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, selling alcohol. My main point is that a single-coloured pack and a licensing system would cut ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c455GC (Link to this contribution) My adviser has corrected my statement, which was wrong. But I am sure that there is something for wh...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c454GC (Link to this contribution) I shall when I have finished the sentence. A single-coloured pack for all tobacco manufacturers with...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c463-4GC (Link to this contribution) It would be most difficult for me to put anything delicately. I think that it has been frightened an...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c464GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad to get that "Hear, hear" from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, because he moved an amendment t...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c464GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has not got the point that I am trying to make, which is that the tobacco industry ha...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c464-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord very much. I am glad to have been corrected on that point, but perhaps we sho...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c461GC (Link to this contribution) At the same time, they usually had a function going on somewhere in the Palace of Westminster to hel...
Lord Naseby | 708 c462GC (Link to this contribution) I address the Committee because I have yet to hear in all our deliberations any evidence that any of...
Baroness Golding | 708 c462GC (Link to this contribution) The Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 prohibits virtually all tobacco advertising, promotio...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c462GC (Link to this contribution) The rules are quite clear. The Companion states: ""Exhibits should not be taken into the Chamber or ...
Baroness Golding | 708 c462-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that. I was not aware of that rule. Naturally, it would help people t...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c472GC (Link to this contribution) That is a question of opinion. I am likely to sit in my doctor’s waiting room and read the various p...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c473GC (Link to this contribution) I want to raise one point. I cannot help feeling that the noble Baroness’s experience is in some way...
Baroness Northover | 708 c467GC (Link to this contribution) He is obviously entitled to put Questions. I welcome the fact that the Government spend £185,000 sup...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c478GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I support the amendment and the one that follows. It is crucially important that this kind ...
Earl Howe | 708 c476-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 113. For a number of years, as my noble friend Lady Cumberlege menti...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c475GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen will be delighted with the short debate t...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c475GC (Link to this contribution) I say in response to the question raised by the noble Earl that I was including out-of-hours service...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c481-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Howe, seeks to amend the clause so that PCTs cannot assess pharmacists’ profess...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c487GC (Link to this contribution) I support what has been said by noble Lords. I think that the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ca...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c487-8GC (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with the intention behind the amendment, as has every Member of the Committee who has s...
Baroness Barker | 708 c485-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have been in this House for almost 10 years. One thing that I learnt fairly early on is that the n...
Lord Palmer | 708 c484-5GC (Link to this contribution) Many Members of the Committee may be aware that I tried to introduce a similar amendment in the prev...
Lord Monson | 708 c489-90GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that my noble friend’s amendment would do very little to curb wastage. Would it no...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c490GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 29: Breach of terms of arrangements: notices and penalties Amendment 115A 115A: Clause 29, ...
Lord Palmer | 708 c490GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful once again for the support that I have had from all sides of the Committee. Greater tr...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c450GC (Link to this contribution) The main arguments against the new clause have already been made by the noble Lords, Lord Borrie and...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c451GC (Link to this contribution) I made no comment on alcohol. I have been rather careful—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c451GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think I referred to the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth. I find it absurd, frankly, that a pe...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c451-2GC (Link to this contribution) It might be helpful if I said what the Government’s position was on this. Amendment 105 would enable...
Lord Colwyn | 708 c439GC (Link to this contribution) There may be Divisions in the Chamber while we are sitting. If that is so, the Committee will adjour...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c442-3GC (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to the amendment, to which I give my strong support, because packaging is the m...
Baroness Golding | 708 c444GC (Link to this contribution) Far from thinking that this is a cracking amendment, I think it is crackers. Where have noble Lords ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c443-4GC (Link to this contribution) I think this is a cracking amendment. I hope that those who tabled it will move it on the Floor of t...
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 708 c498GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until next Tuesday, 17 March, at 3.30 pm.
Baroness Thornton | 708 c498GC (Link to this contribution) This is a convenient point for the Committee to adjourn. I understand that we will reconvene on Tues...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c456GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord talks about the illegal selling of tobacco, but I assure him that most of the tobacco...
Lord Naseby | 708 c454GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord should know by now that you do not need a dog licence in England.
Lord Patel | 708 c453GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 106 106: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— "Licensing of tobacco retailin...
Lord Patel | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) I make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that I did not table the amendment for the mere purp...
Baroness Northover | 708 c459-60GC (Link to this contribution) I shall backtrack slightly. I was talking about Amendment 107B and reminding noble Lords, who are no...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c460-1GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on introducing these clauses. I put my name to on...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c461-2GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is absolutely right. If they were not able to get along to the function in the Palac...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c463GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee will not get away without hearing me on this subject. I apologise, first, to the noble...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I live in rural North Yorkshire when I am not in London, and the diff...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c468-9GC (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the Committee and at the request of my noble friend, I am very happy to move this ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 708 c468GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 23: Pharmaceutical needs assessments Amendment 111ZA 111ZA: Clause 23, page 27, line 10, at...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 708 c468GC (Link to this contribution) I have to be on the Woolsack at 6 pm, so my good and noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester will sp...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c472-3GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is absolutely right to some extent, but this is anecdotal evidence. One talks to ...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c473GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear what the noble Lord has said, but it is not the norm for a qualified pharmaci...
Baroness Northover | 708 c467GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her positive response. We will look at this further, and I look forward to ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) I am not pulling anyone’s leg; I am simply ensuring that the point of view of the tobacco industry a...
Baroness Northover | 708 c467GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome that clarification. Even if they were campaigning, I think that that would be perfectly ju...
Earl Howe | 708 c478GC (Link to this contribution) No, I did not mention it because it is coming up in the next amendment.
Baroness Tonge | 708 c477-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am a fan of pharmacists and pharmacies. There is no question in my mind that they are the first po...
Earl Howe | 708 c476GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 111A 111A: Clause 23, page 27, line 16, at end insert— "( ) requiring the Secretary of St...
Earl Howe | 708 c482-3GC (Link to this contribution) That was a helpful reply from the Minister. It told me, if I understood her correctly, that a modus ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c483GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 26: Breach of terms of arrangements: notices and penalties Amendment 114A 114A: Clause 26, ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c484GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 114B 114B: Clause 26, page 29, line 21, at end insert— ""practitioner" means a person inc...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c481GC (Link to this contribution) When it is decided by a PCT or whoever decides about pharmacists, will the miles be taken into consi...
Earl Howe | 708 c480-1GC (Link to this contribution) We come to an issue presciently raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge. The amendment is designed ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c480GC (Link to this contribution) The note refers to the framework. We agree that the need for consistent and comprehensive assessment...
Earl Howe | 708 c480GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 24: New arrangements for entry to pharmaceutical list Amendment 114 114: Clause 24, page 28...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c487GC (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting amendment and important in principle. The only difficulties that I foresee ar...
Lord Palmer | 708 c488GC (Link to this contribution) Elderly patients would not pay prescription charges at all, would they?
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c486GC (Link to this contribution) We are really out of knockabout territory on this issue. In my view, this is a very serious amendmen...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c486-7GC (Link to this contribution) The spirit of the amendment is important, but there is a danger here that patients might be made to ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c490GC (Link to this contribution) Those are very good suggestions, all of which involve patient education and the prescribers of the m...
Lord Naseby | 708 c448GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right: TRIPS has that within its ambit. However, he needs to look very carefully a...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c446GC (Link to this contribution) There is nothing in the amendment that makes it illegal to display the trademarks; it simply allows ...
Lord Naseby | 708 c446GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, because I have done a little delving on the lega...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c449GC (Link to this contribution) I intervene briefly to support my colleagues, who clearly worked with, and had a lot to do with, chi...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c450GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may find my comments useful.
Baroness Tonge | 708 c449-50GC (Link to this contribution) From my own experience and my experience of young people, there is no question in my mind that unatt...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c451GC (Link to this contribution) I would like just to answer the noble Lord. I said nothing about alcohol whatsoever. This debate is ...
Lord Patel | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. I am slightly disappointed, because I had thought that we al...
Lord Naseby | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) It is no good saying no; that is a fact.
Lord Patel | 708 c439-40GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 105 105: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— "Plain packaging (1) The Secre...
Earl Howe | 708 c496GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I am pretty satisfied with her reply on Amendment 120, ...
Earl Howe | 708 c496-7GC (Link to this contribution) That was an extraordinarily helpful intervention by the noble Baroness. I certainly take her point b...
Baroness Barker | 708 c496GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may seek clarity. My understanding of what the noble Baroness said is that in practice the...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c497GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also address Amendments 121 and 122 tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Although I am not s...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c497GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 120A 120A: Schedule 5, page 64, line 37, leave out "means"
Baroness Northover | 708 c457GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 107 107: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— "Reporting of promotional acti...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c455GC (Link to this contribution) I thought I had better just say a few words. When I ran a grocery shop, I actually had a tobacco lic...
Lord Patel | 708 c453-4GC (Link to this contribution) It is my pleasure to move the amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, who unfortu...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c454GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. If a dog owner needs a licence, I cannot see why a retail tobacconist should ...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) I am no expert in the law, but all that the amendment would do would be to give authority to the Gov...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c464GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord accept one point? He asked why the industry should not be able to promote the s...
Lord Palmer | 708 c464GC (Link to this contribution) If I may correct the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, it was to ban the sale of all tobacco pro...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) I am not going to argue with the noble Lord. I have the figures here but I do not want to take up to...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c470-2GC (Link to this contribution) When I was a Minister in the department, it was drummed into me that doctors prescribe and pharmacis...
Earl Howe | 708 c469-70GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, has very capably outlined some of the concerns which I am aware are c...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 708 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I live in Belford in Northumberland, which is in the centre of a rural area...
Lord Monson | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, has rightly reminded us that tobacco does not kill everyone, which is...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c466GC (Link to this contribution) My thunder was stolen in that I wished to close this section of the Committee’s deliberations on tob...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is pulling everybody’s leg.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will join me in trying to stop the promotion of tobacco, I will join him in trying...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c465GC (Link to this contribution) I shall have to think about that. The noble Baroness may be interested to know that I prepared a Bil...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c467GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help the noble Baroness. It would be in the interests of the Committee to know that th...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c478-9GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Howe, seeks to amend this clause by requiring piloting and evaluation of pharma...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 708 c475GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister did not mention the out-of-hours services. Those in rural areas are really very difficu...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c473-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment of my noble friend Lady Gibson, spoken to by my noble friend Lord Faulkner, would amen...
Earl Howe | 708 c479-80GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, in particular for her support on this amendment and...
Earl Howe | 708 c480GC (Link to this contribution) It does help a little, and I look forward to reading the draft regulations when they are published. ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c488-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am referring to the cost of the medicine and the effect of putting pricing information on medicine...
Lord Palmer | 708 c484GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 115 115: After Clause 27, insert the following new Clause— "Prescriptions: labelling show...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c490-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 115B to 115E 115B: Clause 29, page 30, line 30, leave out "or" and insert "services or g...
Lord Rea | 708 c448GC (Link to this contribution) I think that quite a good case could be made out to classify cigarettes as pariah groups. I take the...
Lord Patel | 708 c448GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, question whether my amendment infringe...
Lord Naseby | 708 c446-7GC (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the interpretation of the European Court of Human Rights would be exactly the same as...
Lord Naseby | 708 c446GC (Link to this contribution) My experience of "may" in some 40 years in Parliament is that it always results in "shall". I assume...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 708 c448-9GC (Link to this contribution) We could avoid all this rather complex and convoluted, but very real, argument about European regula...
Lord Naseby | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) The only passion the noble Lord raises in me is my belief that he and those who support him tend to ...
Lord Naseby | 708 c452GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to finish my sentence. In that context, I remind the noble Lord that we should be caref...
Baroness Golding | 708 c444GC (Link to this contribution) They are colourful, as the noble Lord opposite said. Where is the colour? It has been put on by the ...
Lord Patel | 708 c440-2GC (Link to this contribution) My amendment relates to the plain packaging of tobacco products and deals with whether packaging is ...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c443GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment. I do so partly because of what my noble friend Lady Howarth said a...

Subjects

Complaints
Disability
Children
Disclosure of information
Advertising
Costs
Doctors
Health services
Licensing
Health hazards
EU law
Drugs
Industry
Health authorities
Labelling
NHS
Pilot schemes
Pharmacy
Older people
Primary care trusts
Packaging
Ombudsman
Prescriptions
Standards
Sales
Young people
Shops
Tobacco
Social services
Rural areas
Trade marks
Sales promotions
Care Quality Commission

Legislation

Health Bill (HL) 2008-09

Link

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