Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 42 to 51 debated and agreed to, with clauses 44 and 45 agreed to as amended. New clauses (Amendments 92 to 93, 95, 97, 99 to 100, and 111) debated and withdrawn.
Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL]
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Wednesday, 4 March 2009,
in the House of Lords.
About these Parliamentary proceedings
Reference
708 c734-804, 815-36Session
2008-09Legislative stage
Committee stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 15-EN also published.
Wednesday, 14 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 14 January 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Earl of Listowel | 708 c825 (Link to this contribution)
I speak to Amendment 116; I hope that I am not speaking out of place. It might be interpreted as als...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 708 c825 (Link to this contribution)
I also support the amendment. It may well be that it can be explained in a way that will satisfy all...
Show all contributions (159)
Lord Hylton | 708 c825 (Link to this contribution)
In the previous group of amendments, perhaps I should have mentioned that when children are traffick...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c823-5 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the Minister will be able to accept these amendments today because they reflect a most s...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c828 (Link to this contribution)
Whilst I am not aware of the specific issue that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised about the culti...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that—that is heartening. Perhaps he would like to also publish at some poin...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I was trying to not go on for too long, because I was looking at the clock. The figures are 103 for ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c827 (Link to this contribution)
I understand why the Minister would not be able to give me figures for those prosecuted for traffick...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c826-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness and to other Members of the Committee for seeking to ensure that...
Lord Ramsbotham | 708 c828-9 (Link to this contribution)
I would be sorry if this amendment were not moved, because it is extremely serious. It applies to th...
Lord Ramsbotham | 708 c828 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 113
113: Clause 51, page 41, line 31, at end insert—
"( ) In issuing and reviewing any su...
Lord Hylton | 708 c830 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend Lord Ramsbotham was absolutely right to move the amendment. The whole area is one wh...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c830 (Link to this contribution)
I was initially embarrassed at my slowness at finding the papers to move the amendment but once I he...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c830 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may raise a small, though not unimportant, matter. I understand that the Home Office has j...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c831-2 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, for bringing up this very important point. I am not sure bu...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c828 (Link to this contribution)
I am enormously disappointed with the Minister’s reply. As he read out his brief he might have antic...
Lord Ramsbotham | 708 c836 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry that we should end this evening on a disappointing note. There is nothing personal in thi...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c835 (Link to this contribution)
I agree. That is a very good point; I have no difficulty with it at all. I am particularly unqualifi...
Lord Avebury | 708 c835 (Link to this contribution)
It would be useful to have this information before next week, because one of the amendments that is ...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c835 (Link to this contribution)
I have one small point to add. I understand that the children’s panel has been particularly effectiv...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c834 (Link to this contribution)
I am lost in admiration all the time for the work of local authorities—I am a member of one, so I de...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c835 (Link to this contribution)
There is a bit of an issue here. If the local authorities are the very ones that are failing in thei...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 708 c832 (Link to this contribution)
I have listened to this exchange, which on top of the other concerns on the previous amendment are r...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c832-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to Members of the Committee for raising the issue of guidance, which is a crucial elem...
Lord Avebury | 708 c734-6 (Link to this contribution)
In moving Amendment 92 and speaking to Amendment 101A, I want to make it clear from the outset that ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c739 (Link to this contribution)
In contrast, this amendment is designed to probe the Government on the different requirements for re...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c739 (Link to this contribution)
I look forward to those discussions. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 93 withdrawn....
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c739 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 95
95: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"Acquisition by registration: mi...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c738-9 (Link to this contribution)
The purpose of this amendment is to insert into the Bill a new clause dealing with the stateless chi...
Lord Brett | 708 c739 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for setting out the reasoning behind the amendment for our illum...
Lord Avebury | 708 c737 (Link to this contribution)
A few days ago, I did not expect to get such a favourable answer from the Minister on either this am...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c737-8 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 93
93: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"Stateless children of British n...
Lord Ramsbotham | 708 c736 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in these amendments, and declare a similar interest, h...
Lord Brett | 708 c737 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to respond to the very powerful arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury and my noble f...
Baroness Whitaker | 708 c736 (Link to this contribution)
I warmly support these two amendments. It is generally held that the Chagos Islands have had an extr...
Lord Avebury | 708 c750-1 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment would remove Hong Kong war wives and widows from the list of those who must satisfy a ...
Lord Avebury | 708 c750 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 43: Good character requirement
Amendment 105
105: Clause 43, page 35, line 29, leave out su...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c750 (Link to this contribution)
What can I say? I will not take it to the vote but if the principle is not clearly stated on Report ...
Lord Brett | 708 c749 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for the speed of my delivery. It is partly a cultural inheritance of coming from the nor...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c746 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 42: Children born outside UK etc. to members of the armed forces
Amendment 102
102: Clause ...
Lord Avebury | 708 c745-6 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to other noble Lords for those interventions. They highlight the fact that, altho...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c749 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that I shall have to pursue the matter a little further because the Minister speaks at a...
Lord Brett | 708 c747-9 (Link to this contribution)
It was proposed to put all the amendments in this area into the conversation and that is still a way...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 708 c747 (Link to this contribution)
I should point out that if the amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendments 103 and 104.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c746-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that we are all having some difficulty in getting our heads around the proposals that the ...
Lord Brett | 708 c745 (Link to this contribution)
That is perfectly correct. At this stage, I just want to avoid jumping too far ahead. We have not ev...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 708 c745 (Link to this contribution)
I emphasise the points that have just been made. I have quite purposefully not entered into discussi...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c745 (Link to this contribution)
I should be grateful for that. It would be helpful to distinguish between cases that need to be clar...
Lord Hylton | 708 c745 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that we all appreciate the Government’s good will in trying to resolve certain questions a...
Lord Brett | 708 c745 (Link to this contribution)
It is not for me, but as I understand procedure, Report stage does not allow for the reopening of de...
Lord Brett | 708 c744 (Link to this contribution)
Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for setting out the reasoning behind his proposed new clause....
Lord Avebury | 708 c743-4 (Link to this contribution)
I imagine that this will be another amendment that we can bundle up in the discussion. The first par...
Lord Brett | 708 c744-5 (Link to this contribution)
The purpose behind the proposal for discussions is that in each of the cases where we have amendment...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c744 (Link to this contribution)
I have not been involved in these amendments but I am a little puzzled about the procedure, if they ...
Lord Avebury | 708 c742 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 100
100: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"Acquisition by birth of adopt...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 708 c742 (Link to this contribution)
On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 99 withdrawn.
Lord Brett | 708 c742 (Link to this contribution)
My brief indicates that the Government believe that this proposal is unnecessary in practice. Again,...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 708 c741-2 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 99
99: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"Legitimacy
(1) The British Nati...
Lord Avebury | 708 c741 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to accept the noble Lord’s kind offer that we should include this amendment in the packag...
Lord Brett | 708 c741 (Link to this contribution)
Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for setting out the reasoning behind the amendment. I am afra...
Lord Avebury | 708 c740-1 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment seeks to obtain clarification of the way that the Secretary of State gets to be satis...
Lord Avebury | 708 c740 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 97
97: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"British citizenship: registrati...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c740 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his reply. Given the brevity of his answer, which is a precursor to everyth...
Lord Brett | 708 c740 (Link to this contribution)
I have seven pages of text with which I can regale noble Lords, but in practice it would be more sen...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c781 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, thank the Minister for an illuminating and extremely helpful reply, because he has made clea...
Lord Avebury | 708 c782 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 111
111: After Clause 48, insert the following new Clause—
"Fingerprints and samples take...
Lord Avebury | 708 c782-4 (Link to this contribution)
On Friday 31 October, I had a telephone call from Mr Yousif al-Khoei, the distinguished head of the ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c780 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for having addressed those points. One outstanding point on which...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c776-80 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for that warning before I say anything else.
In speaking to this group of am...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 708 c781 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that extremely helpful and constructive response. I would be certainly be w...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c780 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that I do not know the exact answer to that, but I shall by tomorrow.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 708 c775-6 (Link to this contribution)
Once a year, when I was in the private sector, I used to attend one of the remarkable futurology cou...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 708 c776 (Link to this contribution)
We are the biggest lobby in the House, as we have said.
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c788 (Link to this contribution)
The position on timing is that there will be a paper before the summer with draft regulations, which...
Lord Avebury | 708 c788 (Link to this contribution)
The bottom line was that we cannot retain the samples indefinitely without being in breach of Articl...
Lord Avebury | 708 c787-8 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful for that. Could the report that was submitted to the Council of Ministers—this mo...
Lord Avebury | 708 c786-7 (Link to this contribution)
We are not arguing here about whether it is right to take fingerprints or DNA samples; that is taken...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c786 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I can get back in writing on exactly who will be consulted. I do not necessarily share the n...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c786 (Link to this contribution)
Consultations, consultations, consultations—but it depends who you consult. Will we at some stage be...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c784-6 (Link to this contribution)
While I appreciate the thrust of the inquiry of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about the status of Sc...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c784 (Link to this contribution)
I had the great privilege yesterday to visit the National DNA Database at Hendon and spent a very in...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 708 c762-4 (Link to this contribution)
I will speak to the two amendments in this group in the name of my noble friend Lord Smith. Amendmen...
Lord Teverson | 708 c764 (Link to this contribution)
I admit that I favour the proposition to remove the clause altogether, although I agree with my nobl...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c764-5 (Link to this contribution)
I should first make it clear that, in speaking to this group of amendments, I do not regard the deci...
Lord Avebury | 708 c765 (Link to this contribution)
Surely the Eurodac computer system would prevent that. Everybody has to have their fingerprints reco...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c765-7 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that that does not stop it from happening. As I say, we have found that there are cases ...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c757-60 (Link to this contribution)
I should make it clear at the outset that there is absolutely no intention to abolish the CTA. Indee...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c760 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 108A
108A: Clause 46, page 39, line 23, after "in" insert "or departs from"
Baroness Hanham | 708 c760-2 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise again because my noble friend Lord Glentoran is unable to be here and my noble friend Vi...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 708 c773-4 (Link to this contribution)
I declare an interest as a retired academic, although I still have a number of PhD students, some of...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 708 c774-5 (Link to this contribution)
I declare an interest on behalf of Cardiff University and its courses and as a co-opted member of th...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c772 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 47: Restriction on studies
Amendment 108E
108E: Clause 47, page 39, line 32, at beginning i...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c772-3 (Link to this contribution)
We now move to the other "stray" clause in the Bill. I shall also be speaking to Amendments 109 to 1...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c767 (Link to this contribution)
There will still be considerably greater freedom of movement than there is in moving from nation to ...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 708 c767 (Link to this contribution)
I have listened quite carefully. If the Minister gets his legislation, what is special about the com...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c771 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for that helpful intervention. I feel very inadequate as he has a great deal...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 708 c770-1 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may make a brief intervention. I have taken an interest in the subject of security amid th...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c767-70 (Link to this contribution)
You will carry exactly the same things with you on the plane, because you have to have a way of iden...
Lord Teverson | 708 c767 (Link to this contribution)
I do not understand what the difference is between flying from London to Dublin and flying from Lond...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c817 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, have added my name to this amendment. There should be a requirement to care for children in ...
Lord Hylton | 708 c817 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham that it would be better to leave out the words, ""who a...
Lord Avebury | 708 c817 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to underline what my noble friend said about the juxtaposed controls. That is particularly im...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c820-1 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all those who have spoken. I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, ...
Lord Avebury | 708 c821 (Link to this contribution)
I shall just probe the Minister a little further about the juxtaposed controls. Here you have a situ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 708 c817-8 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, am keen to support this amendment and I raised the issues at Second Reading. A lot of points...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 708 c818 (Link to this contribution)
I was unable to speak at Second Reading, but I thank the Government for recognising the importance o...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c818 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the Minister and to your Lordships, for the Minister helpfully arranged a timely meet...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c818-20 (Link to this contribution)
It became apparent at Second Reading that, in terms of intent, we all feel this clause to be our own...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c821-2 (Link to this contribution)
The position as regards children abroad, as I say, is that our people are trained and taught what to...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c822 (Link to this contribution)
I can accept what the Minster is saying and I am sorry to have to labour the point. However, what if...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c821 (Link to this contribution)
All I can say—and I cannot go into detail on that—is that UKBA staff have to refer to the authoritie...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c823 (Link to this contribution)
I absolutely agree that this is a complex area. That is why it would be a shame to curtail this disc...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c823 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 112B
112B: Clause 51, page 41, line 24, at end insert "including the prevention of traffi...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c823 (Link to this contribution)
I share the noble Earl’s concern. I am sorry that I did not acknowledge that fact but I am delighted...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c822 (Link to this contribution)
I do not see any problem with that. I think we will come to more of the details in other amendments....
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c822-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that. I realise that we may go over some of this detail again later but I a...
Lord Hylton | 708 c788-90 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 49: Extension of sections 1 to 4 of the UK Borders Act 2007 to Scotland
Debate on whether Cl...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c790 (Link to this contribution)
I greatly respect the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and what he has done in this particul...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 708 c790 (Link to this contribution)
While we are considering Clause 49, I ask the noble Lord why this clause is in the Bill at all. When...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c790 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that it was because we had quite a dialogue with the Scottish legal system about how th...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 708 c790 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister but I do not need any more detail; I just wondered what had happened. Clearly t...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c790 (Link to this contribution)
I am always very wary of U-turns, if I may say so.
Clause 49 agreed.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c791 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 50: Transfer of immigration or nationality judicial review applications
Amendments 111A and ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c791-3 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 50 is concerned with judicial review in Part 4 of the Bill. The Tribunals, Courts and Enforce...
Lord Kingsland | 708 c794-5 (Link to this contribution)
I also gave notice of my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 50 stand part of the Bill. I a...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 708 c797-8 (Link to this contribution)
I speak only to Amendment 111DA, which affects the Court of Session. Section 20 of the Tribunals, Co...
Lord Pannick | 708 c798-9 (Link to this contribution)
I find this matter much more difficult than noble Lords who have spoken so far on this amendment. Th...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c799-803 (Link to this contribution)
I am not sure I agree with that.
Amendment 111BA retains the general effect of the clause, allowing...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c799 (Link to this contribution)
I make it clear at the outset that in speaking to this group I do not regard the decision that Claus...
Lord Kingsland | 708 c799 (Link to this contribution)
I think it is more like being a lion in a den of Daniels.
Baroness Fookes | 708 c816 (Link to this contribution)
I remind the Committee that if Amendment 112 is agreed I cannot call Amendment 112A by reason of pre...
Lord Ramsbotham | 708 c816-7 (Link to this contribution)
I have put my name to this amendment because it is extremely important, bearing in mind the responsi...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c815 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 51: Duty regarding the welfare of children
Amendment 112
112: Clause 51, page 41, line 16, ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c816 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 51 brings in a duty regarding the welfare of children in the carrying out of immigration and ...
Baroness Hamwee | 708 c751 (Link to this contribution)
I support this amendment. This seems to be the most curious inclusion in the BNA of a very small num...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c751 (Link to this contribution)
I strongly support my noble friend in this amendment. It seems disgraceful that this Government shou...
Lord Brett | 708 c751 (Link to this contribution)
I shall keep my response short, if not slow. A powerful case has been made. I have the brief. The se...
Lord Avebury | 708 c751 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister and have pleasure in withdrawing the amendment.
Amendment 105 wi...
Lord Teverson | 708 c756-7 (Link to this contribution)
I have not been much involved in this Bill, but I take a great interest in freedom of movement, with...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c752 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 45: Other interpretation etc.
Amendment 108
108: Clause 45, page 39, line 2, at end insert—...
Lord Brett | 708 c752 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 44: Meaning of references to being in breach of immigration laws
Amendments 106 and 107
106...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 708 c753-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am making an unexpected guest appearance in Committee on the Bill. I ask noble Lords to bear with ...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 708 c752 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 46: Common Travel Area
Amendment 108ZA
108ZA: Clause 46, page 39, line 20, at end insert—
"...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 708 c825 (Link to this contribution)
We on these Benches are grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling the amendment. Although we will n...
Lord Avebury | 708 c734 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 92
92: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
"The Ilois: citizenship
In secti...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c776 (Link to this contribution)
First, I declare an interest: I am chancellor of a university. It is interesting to see how many Mem...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c823 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness withdraws the amendment, may I make one remark? This is clearly a complex ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 708 c795-7 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, was surprised to find Clause 50 tucked away in the Bill so soon after the Tribunals, Courts ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 708 c803-4 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, put his finger on the problem which was created by Mr Blunkett’s abo...
Viscount Bridgeman | 708 c755-6 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. The Government’s utterances on id...
Lord Avebury | 708 c830-1 (Link to this contribution)
I am very glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, raised this matter of the withdrawal of funds f...
Baroness Fookes | 708 c828 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 113? Not moved?
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c787 (Link to this contribution)
I shall certainly ensure that we put those details on the website. I hope that we can put some sensi...
Baroness Hanham | 708 c784 (Link to this contribution)
The new clause gives us an opportunity to open up the question of the retention of biometric substan...
Lord Hylton | 708 c762 (Link to this contribution)
It must be clear to the Government by now that there is widespread concern about Clause 46 and the d...
Lord West of Spithead | 708 c821 (Link to this contribution)
I assume that the noble Baroness is talking about a "dawn raid" in this country; of course, this Bil...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 708 c742 (Link to this contribution)
The purpose of the amendment is to allow those born to fathers not married to their mothers to regis...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 708 c760 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his response. I was slightly worried about the word "incremental". As a Yor...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 708 c821 (Link to this contribution)
I shall just probe a little further on this. Is the Minister saying that if, on the other side of a ...
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