UK Parliament / Open data

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords]

Debate on bills on Wednesday, 22 October 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Baroness Primarolo. The answering member was Mark Simmonds.
Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL). Programme motion (No 2) varying the order of proceedings on report stage and third reading. Agreed to on division (322 votes to 157). Report stage. Clause 3 debated with amendments and new clause 24. Amendments negatived on division. Third reading debate. Agreed to on division (355 votes to 129). Bill passed with amendments.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

481 c324-414, (corrigendum) 544;481 c324-414 

Session

2007-08

Department

Department of Health

Legislative stage

Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL). As amended in the Committee and in Public Bill Committee.
Thursday, 12 June 2008
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Primarolo | 481 c335 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend will know that that is not for me to say as a Minister. I may have a view perso...
John Pugh | 481 c339 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 49, page 3, line 26, after 'transmission', insert 'via cytoplasm'.

Show all contributions (170)
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c334 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. These are very important matters, and it is import...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 481 c335 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I understand that she is saying that that is not a matter for...
Speaker | 481 c339 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 41, page 3, line 26, at end...
John Pugh | 481 c340 (Link to this contribution) As sufficient brickbats have been handed out so far, may I put on record that this emotive Bill was ...
Crispin Blunt | 481 c332 (Link to this contribution) Unless my memory serves me false—which it may be doing—my recollection is that the right hon. Gentle...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 481 c332 (Link to this contribution) I did not table any amendments to this Bill at any stage, so the hon. Gentleman is entirely incorrec...
Jim Dobbin | 481 c332-3 (Link to this contribution) I begin by thanking the Leader of the House for bringing this Bill back after July. At that time, I ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 481 c329 (Link to this contribution) Many Opposition Members have laid proper emphasis on the fact that they will have free votes on this...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 481 c329-31 (Link to this contribution) I find this programme motion particularly cynical. It marks another rather important change in the w...
Fiona Mactaggart | 481 c331 (Link to this contribution) I have spoken to the Bill on a number of occasions, and on each occasion I have spoken about the emb...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 481 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the Government and the programme motion. I assure the House that my party was not ...
Dari Taylor | 481 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) I am very disappointed to have to state that I will have great difficulty in supporting the programm...
Jacqui Lait | 481 c333 (Link to this contribution) I do not often feel sorry for the Government, but in a sense they are the victims of their own actio...
Robert Key | 481 c334 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is with great regret that I shall not be supporting the timetable ...
Speaker | 481 c334 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am prepared to call one more hon. Member to speak, on the basis that he or she respects the...
Norman Lamb | 481 c327 (Link to this contribution) Like the Conservative spokesman, I confirm that my party will have free votes throughout the debate,...
John Pugh | 481 c327 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend surely recognises that abortion was not discussed at any stage in the consideration o...
Speaker | 481 c326 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps it would be convenient for the House if I were to re-emphasise the ruling that Mr. Sp...
Gerald Kaufman | 481 c326 (Link to this contribution) I made it perfectly clear in my point of order to Mr. Speaker that I totally respect the Speaker's r...
Mark Simmonds | 481 c324-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall confine my remarks at this stage specifically to the programme motion. As the Minister corre...
Gerald Kaufman | 481 c325-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) that the Bill deals with large ...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c324 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That the Order of 12th May 2008 (Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords] (Pro...
Ann Widdecombe | 481 c328-9 (Link to this contribution) I am in a quandary. Normally, the very mention of the words ““timetable motion”” is enough to have m...
Diane Abbott | 481 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) I speak against the programme motion because—and I say this with no pleasure—it and the order of dis...
Norman Lamb | 481 c327 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that it was, but in any case that does not negate the points that I am making. ...
David Burrowes | 481 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) Certainly the issues are complex and certainly there has been a desire at an early stage for clarity...
Lord Deben | 481 c348 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has been demonstrating how complex are these questions. Is it not true that one has a...
David Burrowes | 481 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. That is the least the public would expect of us. They may or ...
Evan Harris | 481 c350 (Link to this contribution) I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument with interest. Will he explain whether it is his unders...
David Burrowes | 481 c350 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. If the hon. Gentleman bears with me, I shall come shortly to th...
Robert Flello | 481 c350 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity, will the hon. Gentleman say whether he is referring to mid-gestation in the...
David Burrowes | 481 c351 (Link to this contribution) Let me give an example. The procedure has been used in mice since the early 1990s, and it is routine...
David Burrowes | 481 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Southport (Dr. Pugh) and for Stroud (Mr. Drew), and ...
William Cash | 481 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite the Prime Minister writing in an article in The Observer on ...
Ann Widdecombe | 481 c353 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that this is fairly simple? There is not a scientific consensus on the definition...
David Burrowes | 481 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for her comments. Similar points were made in the other place....
Evan Harris | 481 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) I am still a little confused, because there are two issues here. First, is the tetraploid complement...
David Burrowes | 481 c353 (Link to this contribution) As always, I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's intervention and for his expertise in this matter....
Sally Keeble | 481 c354 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that he is talking about scientists opening a can of worms by dev...
David Burrowes | 481 c354 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of my amendment No. 47 is to deal with the can of worms that is already out there. It is...
Lord Deben | 481 c351 (Link to this contribution) If we assume that the Minister is right, it must be perfectly reasonable to agree with my hon. Frien...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c351 (Link to this contribution) I am listening very carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. His basic argument relates to so...
David Burrowes | 481 c351 (Link to this contribution) It will probably not surprise the Minister to hear that during the 20 or so minutes of my speech, I ...
Sally Keeble | 481 c356 (Link to this contribution) Does clause 4(2)(a) not exclude what the hon. Lady is talking about, because human gametes would be ...
David Burrowes | 481 c355 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall make a bit more progress now. Human-human chimeric embryos will be banned under clause ...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support new clause 24 and amendment No. 50. In my opinion, the issues that they deal with ...
William Cash | 481 c356 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend might be interested to know that when we debated the Warnock report in 1984, I drew a...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c356 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for illustrating the point far better than I could. Who would have thought on...
David Burrowes | 481 c354 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, whose repetition of the point makes it ever better and more c...
Peter Bone | 481 c354 (Link to this contribution) I am following with great interest my hon. Friend's speech, which shows his great knowledge on the s...
David Burrowes | 481 c355 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is the point—we need to be clear in primary legislation.
Sally Keeble | 481 c355 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Deben | 481 c354 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble) is right, is it not true that all she needs do...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c358 (Link to this contribution) I am terribly sorry, but it is historical not hysterical. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to rewrite th...
William Cash | 481 c358 (Link to this contribution) Would my hon. Friend be interested to learn that the United States had a commission to study ethical...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c357-8 (Link to this contribution) That makes my point even more coherently for me. Perhaps we need to legislate to ensure that this ac...
Jim Devine | 481 c358 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady does her case no favours when she goes down this hysterical line. Over the past few we...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c357 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for that clarification. I wish to ask the hon. Member for Northampton, ...
Mark Durkan | 481 c357 (Link to this contribution) The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North made was raised in error, because th...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c357 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady wishes to argue that point, perhaps she would like to make her own speech.
Lord Deben | 481 c357 (Link to this contribution) Do we not come back to exactly the same thing? If the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble)...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c356 (Link to this contribution) That does not excuse the situation at all. The provision to which the hon. Lady refers prohibits the...
John Pugh | 481 c341 (Link to this contribution) To exaggerate a problem is still to identify that a problem exists, and I do not think that it was i...
Ian Gibson | 481 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the vast majority of genes in the mitochondria look after mitocho...
Ian Gibson | 481 c343 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be confusing the issue. For example, if somebody has cystic fibrosis, it is possi...
David Drew | 481 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) In many respects, I am pleased to follow the hon. Gentleman, because amendments Nos. 41 and 73, in m...
Evan Harris | 481 c342 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, some of the research that would be banned by my hon. Friend's new clause involve...
John Pugh | 481 c342 (Link to this contribution) I would really like instruction on what that ““invaluable”” research, conducted in such a bizarre wa...
Kevin Barron | 481 c341 (Link to this contribution) The Medical Research Council, the Association of Medical Research Charities, the Wellcome Trust and ...
John Pugh | 481 c341 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that support. I see that we are in a holy, or perhaps unholy, alliance. W...
Evan Harris | 481 c341 (Link to this contribution) May I offer my support for my hon. Friend's amendment No. 49, which is at the head of the group that...
John Hayes | 481 c382-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason), particularly as he quoted...
Jim Sheridan | 481 c381 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is new in the House, so may I give him some advice? He should take no advice on a...
John Mason | 481 c381-2 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that supportive comment, and I think that the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) was repe...
William Cash | 481 c381 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman has not been in the House for very long, but some of us hope to...
John Mason | 481 c381 (Link to this contribution) I totally accept the hon. Gentleman's point. The debate has been compressed into the impossibly shor...
Mark Durkan | 481 c379 (Link to this contribution) I fully respect what the hon. Gentleman has said. I shall not take long to deal with the amendments,...
John Mason | 481 c379-81 (Link to this contribution) I hasten to say that I speak in a personal capacity and not on behalf of my party, which has a free ...
Evan Harris | 481 c367-8 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to speak in this debate, but the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Southport...
Edward Leigh | 481 c363-6 (Link to this contribution) I support amendment No. 41, to which the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) ably spoke, and which is ...
Evan Harris | 481 c368-9 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly possible, but it is also possible that new primary legislation could be brought befo...
William Cash | 481 c368 (Link to this contribution) To pursue that line of argument, does the hon. Gentleman not agree that exactly the same kind of arg...
Kevin Barron | 481 c363 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman actually held any health portfolios, but that is a ve...
Lord Deben | 481 c362 (Link to this contribution) The question before us is such that I do believe that I would have accepted such an amendment on it,...
Evan Harris | 481 c370 (Link to this contribution) I am in almost 100 per cent. agreement with the right hon. Gentleman. It is possible that there are ...
Lord Deben | 481 c369 (Link to this contribution) As somebody who was responsible for that animal legislation, may I suggest to the hon. Gentleman tha...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c370 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing an intervention. An application to the HFEA for a l...
Evan Harris | 481 c361 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Another example of the sort of research to whi...
Kevin Barron | 481 c360-1 (Link to this contribution) I was about to explain why I oppose amendments Nos. 47 and 50 and new clause 24. Earlier, I interven...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c360 (Link to this contribution) If it is well known that scientists never agree, does not the onus then fall on Parliament to ensure...
Kevin Barron | 481 c360 (Link to this contribution) I rise, briefly, to speak against new clause 24 and amendments Nos. 50 and 47. I was involved with t...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c359-60 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is shouting, ““Rubbish,”” from a sedentary position. He is not saying that I am t...
Nadine Dorries | 481 c358-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his valuable intervention. I am not for one moment suggesting that the G...
Kevin Barron | 481 c362 (Link to this contribution) When I first stood up, I said that I was minded not to support it, because of the scientific voice t...
Iain Duncan Smith | 481 c362 (Link to this contribution) If, however, it turned out from the right hon. Gentleman's own standpoint that the argument being ad...
George Howarth | 481 c375 (Link to this contribution) It sometimes feels like a prison.
Dari Taylor | 481 c375 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, Mr. Deputy Warden. Sorry—I meant Mr. ...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 481 c375-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I am one of those people who prefer not to have wardens,...
Dari Taylor | 481 c375 (Link to this contribution) It does; my right hon. Friend is quite right. Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that over th...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 481 c376 (Link to this contribution) I very much appreciate the hon. Gentleman's intervention and he is absolutely correct: it is our job...
Mark Durkan | 481 c376 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. The suggestion has just been made that we should re...
Speaker | 481 c377 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. Far too much conversation is going on, and it is ...
Peter Bone | 481 c376-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson), who makes a...
Peter Bone | 481 c378 (Link to this contribution) The genetic engineering that I was discussing could happen by the insertion of healthy nuclear genes...
Mark Durkan | 481 c378-9 (Link to this contribution) I support amendments Nos. 49 and 50, tabled by the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh), and Nos. 41...
William Cash | 481 c379 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not misunderstand what I am about to say. He is right in what he...
Sally Keeble | 481 c372 (Link to this contribution) That is true, but I think that there are quite a few reasons why people are fearful about the proces...
Dari Taylor | 481 c372 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that many of the fears expressed about ethics this afternoon stem from th...
Sally Keeble | 481 c371 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak to this group of amendments—I was going to on a later one—but having hea...
Sally Keeble | 481 c373 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, I do not agree. I think that the provisions that are currently set down have clear p...
Mark Durkan | 481 c373 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that scientists and clinicians must be equipped with the tools they need. Surely...
Sally Keeble | 481 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree, although I believe that the PCT is now considering providing the three rounds of t...
Peter Bone | 481 c372 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Member for Northampton, North agree that it is most unfortunate that Northamptonshire ...
Sally Keeble | 481 c374 (Link to this contribution) I actually think that talking about GM in people is quite wicked, because it makes people think scie...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 481 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) May I say at the outset that I appreciate the contributions that have been made by the hon. Members ...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) We have looked at how to make regulation more inclusive and more reflective of 21st century society ...
Speaker | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) Order. The Minister has indicated that she is not going to give way.
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. It has been a long journey to Third Readin...
Speaker | 481 c407 (Link to this contribution) The House has decided. These decisions have been made by the House. What I would say to the hon. Gen...
Lord Cormack | 481 c406 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether I could appeal to you as the guardian of the repu...
Mark Simmonds | 481 c409-10 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is of great significance. It has tried to strike a balance—to allow scientific advancement ...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c409 (Link to this contribution) When science throws our views and ethics into flux, legislation brings regulation and stability. The...
Speaker | 481 c409 (Link to this contribution) I have enough difficulty looking after this place without commenting on the other place.
William Cash | 481 c409 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister said that careful consideration had been given to all...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) The Government have listened carefully to views about what should be allowed, what should be prescri...
Speaker | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman should try once more because he is beginning to defy t...
William Cash | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) May I try once more; will the Minister give way?
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) None of the decisions were taken lightly. Indeed, precisely because of the Bill's controversial natu...
Speaker | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Lady has indicated on several occasions that she is not giving way, so the hon...
David Drew | 481 c386 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my right hon. Friend says, but does she understand the concerns that some of us have? We...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) I start by saying clearly—I will return to this point, as the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (M...
Mark Simmonds | 481 c385 (Link to this contribution) I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, because I want to give the Minister time to respo...
William Cash | 481 c401 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have just witnessed an unbelievable disgrace to Parliament in t...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members know that the Bill is about helping the one in seven couples who need assistance with t...
Jim Devine | 481 c388 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend place it on record that the Bill has nothing to do with Stalinist or Nazi ...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c386-8 (Link to this contribution) I am asking my hon. Friend to think about being involved in the consultation, participating in the p...
Mark Simmonds | 481 c384-5 (Link to this contribution) The House will be delighted to hear that I will savagely reduce and synthesise my remarks to give th...
Speaker | 481 c401 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that that is not a matter for the Chair. Amend...
Norman Lamb | 481 c410 (Link to this contribution) It is unfortunate that the Bill has ended its time in the House in this way. The way in which the Go...
Andrew Selous | 481 c410 (Link to this contribution) I want to know what, in years to come, Members of the House are supposed to say to children who look...
Kevin Barron | 481 c410-1 (Link to this contribution) I should briefly like to support the Bill on Third Reading. It is another breakthrough piece of legi...
William Cash | 481 c411 (Link to this contribution) Professor Jones of St. Mary's university college sums it up by saying that there is no doubt that if...
Speaker | 481 c323 (Link to this contribution) It is a regular practice of the House to re-marshal when a programme motion has been tabled. We have...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 481 c323 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do realise that, on the subject of the programme moti...
Speaker | 481 c323 (Link to this contribution) This is up to the House. A programme motion is in order, and it is up to a Minister, if they so wish...
John Pugh | 481 c322 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is a new clause in the first sequence of amendments.
Evan Harris | 481 c322 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should be grateful for your advice and I am sorry that I have no...
Speaker | 481 c322 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the House mentioned the normal way—I was in the Chair when that was said. I am not res...
Gerald Kaufman | 481 c321-2 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you will tell me if this is not an appropriate time...
Speaker | 481 c322 (Link to this contribution) First, the right hon. Gentleman did write to me, but I did not reply to him or to any other letters ...
Lynne Jones | 481 c323 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I note that the order in which the amendments are printed in the O...
Evan Harris | 481 c370 (Link to this contribution) I leave that to stand. I would also say that if a scientist wanted to avoid a criminal charge, it wo...
John Pugh | 481 c385 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Drew | 481 c343-5 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. Friend says, but we have to deal with what we are faced with today. The amendmen...
David Burrowes | 481 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) As always, I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I want to be reassured by the Minister telling me ...
John Pugh | 481 c342 (Link to this contribution) There is absolutely no reason that I can think of why such research should not be banned if people c...
Kevin Barron | 481 c362 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Obviously, with the professional knowledg...
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) No. I am trying to make some brief comments—
Baroness Primarolo | 481 c408 (Link to this contribution) The process was demanding because we were invited to consider issues that strike at the heart of wha...

Notes

Daily part printing error - Division No. 286, c398, in the Ayes insert: "Soames, Mr. Nicholas".

Subjects

Civil partnerships
Clones
Animals
Abortion
Congenital abnormalities
Fertility
Licensing
Human embryo experiments
Diseases
Donors
Genetics
Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority
Ethics
IVF
Fathers
Medical treatments
Northern Ireland
Parents
Mental capacity
Screening
Research
Surrogacy
Human-animal hybrid embryos

Legislation

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL) 2007-08

Link

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