UK Parliament / Open data

Counter-Terrorism Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 21 October 2008, in the House of Lords.
Counter-Terrorism Bill. Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 69 to 76, 80, 82 to 106 agreed to, with clauses 69, 76, 103 and 105 agreed to as amended. Clauses 77, 78, 79, 81 negatived. Schedules 7 and 8 agreed to as amended. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 82).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

704 c1048-105 

Session

2007-08

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Counter-Terrorism Bill. As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 21 October 2008
Bills
House of Lords
Counter-Terrorism Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 65-EN also published.
Thursday, 12 June 2008
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-2557
Monday, 27 October 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-2558
Monday, 27 October 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (5)
Anti-Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001
Thursday, 13 December 2001
Public acts

Proceeding contributions

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 143 and 144: 143: After Clause 99, insert the following new Clause— ““Meanin...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1104 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 145 and 146: 145: Clause 103, page 70, line 14, after ““repealed”” insert ““...

Show all contributions (112)
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1104 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 147: 147: Clause 105, page 70, line 37, at end insert— ““( ) Nothing in this s...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1104-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 148 and 149: 148: In the Title, line 5, leave out ““under United Nations ter...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1098-100 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 142 proposes that no control order should be allowed to last for more than two years o...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1098 (Link to this contribution) In which case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1098 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142: 142: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Control orders: ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1098 (Link to this contribution) I think I addressed Amendment No. 137 when I spoke to Amendments Nos. 138, 139, 140 and 141.
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c1103 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. I am glad to hear that the design phase is coming to an...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1101-3 (Link to this contribution) When he met the Counter-Terrorism Public Bill Committee on 15 May 2008, my right honourable friend t...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142A: 142A: After Clause 97, insert the following new Clause— ““Intercept evid...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1083-8 (Link to this contribution) I have just got into my opening remarks. As I said, I have a highly complex answer here and I went t...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1083 (Link to this contribution) For the clarity of these Benches, I do not agree at all with the noble Lord’s comments, because my n...
Lord Kirkhill | 704 c1082 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, I wonder whether the Committee agrees that fewer interventions from...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1082 (Link to this contribution) What we are talking about—I am dealing with the whole bunch of amendments in saying what I have—is w...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1082 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, we are talking here about giving the person details of what he is being charged ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1082 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt, but I am very anxious that we have complete clarity across the Committee. T...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1081-2 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 131 and 137 to 141 are all concerned with ensuring that a controlee has the right to...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1081 (Link to this contribution) However, the Minister has not yet dealt with the first amendment. Does he propose to deal with that ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1089-90 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 132: 132: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Control orders: ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister and thank him for a full speech on all the amendments. It was muc...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his comments. Certainly I do not want to commit any heresies; I will talk...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1078-80 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, has moved Amendment No. 131 and spoken to all the amendme...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1081 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it will help the Minister if I say that I propose to move each of the amendments to give him...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution) I should make it clear that our preferred option with someone whom we suspect is a terrorist is alwa...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1075-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 131: 131: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Control orders: ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1075 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for his willingness to look at this again, because there are safe...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1081 (Link to this contribution) Although Lord Justice Sedley was dissenting, he was not dissenting on the point that I quoted. All m...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1081 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that. I would much prefer that. I am stepping into dangerous territory he...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1081 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord if what I said was incorrect. I would love to go through them amendmen...
Baroness Hanham | 704 c1072 (Link to this contribution) In contrast with the previous amendment, we support this one. As the noble Baroness has said, the cl...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 704 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 128: 128: Clause 83, page 60, line 21, at end insert ““, and (c) intends that ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1073 (Link to this contribution) The safeguards that the noble Baroness seeks are in the Bill, but I am happy to have a dialogue outs...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 704 c1073 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to other noble Lords who have supported the amendment. I am disappointed that the Mini...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1072-3 (Link to this contribution) We are not in favour of the amendment because making such an action intended would undermine the eff...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak on this amendment until I heard it moved, but I am bound to say that I h...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1074 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130A: 130A: Clause 85, page 62, line 7, at end insert ““unless ownership of th...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1074 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130: 130: Schedule 7, page 95, line 34, at end insert— ““( ) In this paragraph...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1073-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 129: 129: Schedule 7, page 95, line 30, leave out ““a member of Her Majesty’s ...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 704 c1073 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. I shall take him up on his offer. In the mean time, I beg leave to wi...
Lord Goodhart | 704 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 127: 127: After Clause 82, insert the following new Clause— ““Amendment to Ter...
Lord Goodhart | 704 c1068 (Link to this contribution) Surely an Attorney-General would have to take into account a number of factors, one of which is the ...
Baroness Hanham | 704 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that we have some difficulties with this amendment. As I understand it, the Attorney-Gen...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment moved by my noble friend. The conspicuously moderate way in which he has mov...
Baroness Hanham | 704 c1068 (Link to this contribution) I imagine that the Attorney-General deals by and large with issues in this country, not whether in a...
Lord Monson | 704 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene but some interesting points have been raised. Surely terrorism which...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) We fully recognise the sensitive issues that arise in relation to international cases. As has been s...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I have been struck during the debate by the European-centric view of this. I am sorry that the Conse...
Lord Goodhart | 704 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) I regret that the Minister has not gone even so far as suggesting that these are matters that any re...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137: 137: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Control orders: ...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Minister on his astonishing legislative stamina. I had thought that we had heard ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1090 (Link to this contribution) I am about to say something extremely unpopular, but I think that I need to say it. It would be bett...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1091 (Link to this contribution) Although it may be wearying for the Committee, for those of who are not experts or lawyers, interven...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1091-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for making those points. I am glad that he supports control ord...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1096 (Link to this contribution) Along, I am sure, with the rest of the House, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for that ext...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 136 poses a distinct threat to the ability of the Government to protect the public fro...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1051 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105N: 105N: After Clause 73, insert the following new Clause— ““Qualification ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105NZA: 105NZA: After Clause 73, insert the following new Clause— ““Amendment ...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1050 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the provisions currently in the Bill are to ensure that sensitive information us...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1050 (Link to this contribution) In so far as these are technical amendments which bring the legislation into line in the way describ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1051 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 105L and 105M: 105L: Clause 69, page 48, line 39, leave out ““to set aside a...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1050-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105K: 105K: Before Clause 69, insert the following new Clause— ““UN terrorism ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105J: 105J: Before Clause 69, insert the following new Clause— ““Application t...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1048 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I remain to be convinced, I must admit. The principle of simplicity seems better than complication, ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I would not quite put it in those terms. I hope that my explanation that it should be there because ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) We want to ensure that people do not argue that racially motivated terrorism has been specifically e...
Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak, although I was intrigued by the clause, as was the noble Baroness, Lady N...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the Minister’s reply is quite so negative, because by the time that we have debated ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 704 c1064 (Link to this contribution) This is a probing issue, and one to which we may return on Report. I am not clear why it is necessar...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has touched on an issue that is not of huge import, because, as she rightly says,...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Am I correct to read between the Minister’s lines in thinking that, having appointed the noble Lord,...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1063 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and the learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, because I absolutely agree with what ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1062 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest: I recently appeared on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers in ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) We are now back on to inquests as opposed to inquiries. As I understand it, it will be common ground...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1061 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is absolutely right that the clause relates to inquiries. It is conf...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 126A: 126A: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause— ““Inquests: inte...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) I may have misunderstood the noble Baroness, but my understanding was that the matter to which the n...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1060 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness would allow me to give her the reasons in writing, rather than have a lon...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1060 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, Clause 80 refers to inquiries.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1060 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister expand a little on why the public interest immunity system that stood the test of t...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1058 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I am not at all clear what the purpose of this now is. I thoug...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1058 (Link to this contribution) We do not need to go into it now and I am about to stop going into it at all. The reason I am making...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1058 (Link to this contribution) But is this not the very point that the noble Lord made at Second Reading? Surely the Government mus...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) As far as I am aware—but the Minister will explain this—what they have listened to is the desirabili...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 704 c1059 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister replies, I hope that he will tell me what the position is in Scotland. These claus...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I have put my name to the four clause stand part entries on the Marshalled List. I thank the Governm...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his support and for his kind words. Both this House and ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c1060 (Link to this contribution) I entirely support what the Minister just said about Clause 80. It seems to me that if the panel has...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1056 (Link to this contribution) As I mentioned, a number of Members of the Committee have more experience on this. I have already me...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1056-8 (Link to this contribution) I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has just been mentioned. I was perhaps t...
Lord Mawhinney | 704 c1056 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest in that I was one of the Northern Ireland Ministers at the time of this Gibral...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their input and the noble Baroness for her query and probing amendment. Alth...
Lord Goodhart | 704 c1053 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that there is no doubt. Does he accept that there is a real doubt whether the scop...
Lord Kingsland | 704 c1053 (Link to this contribution) Section 4 of Part 2 of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 was recently used, as the nob...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 704 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I may raise a question which I respectfully suggest goes even deeper than those rai...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1055 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 105P and 105Q: 105P: Clause 76, page 53, leave out line 26 105Q: Clause 76...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution) Clause 77 and some of the following clauses propose that inquests could be held without a jury and w...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, it does allow that. The Defence (Armed Forces) Regulations 1939 used to allow it...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1054-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank all those who have spoken in this debate. There are some very important points of principle ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I should like to say how helpful these answers are and what a good pr...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1100 (Link to this contribution) This is the last of the amendments that have been tabled and moved on behalf of the Joint Committee ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I totally disagree with what the noble Baroness has said. The provision is for the avoidance of any ...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1060 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely, but I thought that the noble Baroness had gone back to the coroners.
Lord Goodhart | 704 c1052 (Link to this contribution) I would like to take a little further the argument that has just been put forward by my noble friend...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c1080 (Link to this contribution) In supporting these amendments from our Front Bench, the Government should not think that that means...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1074-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble Baroness’s intention in moving this probing amendment. There was no intention...
Lord West of Spithead | 704 c1070 (Link to this contribution) We get into great difficulty when we focus on this. Is it all right, for example, to kill members of...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1096 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136: 136: After Clause 88, insert the following new Clause— ““Control orders: ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 704 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Is the point that if terrorists say that they want to kill Jews not because they are a religion but ...

Subjects

Disclosure of information
Armed forces
Assets
Coroners
Juries
Evidence
Intelligence services
Human rights
Genocide
National security
Powers of entry
Racially aggravated offences
Terrorism
Surveillance
Religion
Trials
Right of search
Control orders
Freezing of assets

Legislation

Counter-terrorism Bill 2007-08

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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