Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Debate on bills on Monday, 28 January 2008, in the House of Lords.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL). Lords report stage third day. Amendment 163 negatived on division (89 to 22).

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

698 c448-538

Session

2007-08

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0283
Thursday, 31 January 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0291
Thursday, 31 January 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0288
Thursday, 31 January 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. I shall seek legal opinion on the best place in w...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have discussed the welfare of the child at length on previous occasions. It might be he...

Show all contributions (146)

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 698 c449 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps while we are in the business of further clarification we could have an assurance t...

Lord Winston | 698 c449 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it might also be helpful if the Minister could tell us whether this kind of assessment wil...

Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 698 c449 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in his reply could the Minister also explain how the assessment will be made, and who will...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c448 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. Moved accordingly, and, ...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, am I right in understanding that ““long term commitment”” means that the minimum period wo...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, logic tells me that it would be throughout the child’s development, until the child become...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 698 c520-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to have to do it, but I rise again to oppose this amendment. I do so as someone...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 698 c519-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, will understand why I have a sense of déjà vu this evening—our...

Lord Clarke of Hampstead | 698 c525 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be brief in speaking in support of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lad...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c515-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 154 to 162: 154: Schedule 6, page 94, line 37, at end insert— ““Family Law R...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c515 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 152: 152: Schedule 6, page 89, line 24, leave out paragraph 55 and insert— ““5...

Lord Steel of Aikwood | 698 c517-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had rather hoped that we might get through the Bill without any amendments to the aborti...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 698 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 163: 163: Before Clause 59, insert the following new Clause— ““Amendment of la...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will not follow the noble Baroness into the Lobby. We have hear...

Lord Davies of Coity | 698 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I understand the amendment, it is limited to abortion in respect of a child with a seve...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some years ago a man who had four grandchildren, with another expected, drew up his will. ...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I referred to the legal status of the foetus. As regards the legal rights of a child, it i...

Earl Ferrers | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to repeat that because it is important. When did he say t...

Baroness Tonge | 698 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, on having the courage to bring the amendme...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 698 c528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be as brief as was the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. I believe quite simply that i...

Baroness Meacher | 698 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had no plan to speak in this debate; indeed, I promised our colleagues on the Door that ...

Earl Ferrers | 698 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, but I am afraid tha...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I have no doubt that the child would have had the rig...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c507 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Joint Committee that considered the Bill before it was introduced spent a good deal of...

Earl Ferrers | 698 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lady Knight when she says that we are going into dangerous wa...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 698 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that there is a chance tha...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 698 c507 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I share the disquiet that many noble Lords have expressed about the fact that a birth cert...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c509-11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin with the very clear statement that the Government fully recognise the importance o...

Baroness Barker | 698 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords will remember that in Committee I put forward an amendment which suggested tha...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, are the Government content with the discrimination that involves the fact of donor concept...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is referring to the point he debated earlier with my noble frie...

Earl Ferrers | 698 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that the point of a birth certificate is that it should ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is rather a complex issue and we have had that discussion many times, including in Comm...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, does my noble friend agree that the reason we are stuck—it is also the precise reas...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is correct: I did not answer it. I am sure that the legislation would not be discrimi...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 698 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I ask the Minister the question raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, whi...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 698 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot conceal my disappointment that the Government are not able to accept anything goi...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have looked at many issues relating to birth certificates but I do not believe that we ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for her assistance but, as I mentioned earlier, we have b...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 148 to 150: 148: Schedule 6, page 79, line 8, after ““of”” insert ““the form...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.25 pm. Moved accordin...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c513-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 147: 147: Schedule 6, page 78, line 34, after ““of”” insert ““the formation of...

Lord Krebs | 698 c498 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I found much to agree with in the introductory remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady William...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been truly an excellent debate. The amendments address an issue in which noble Lo...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c495-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, first brought this proposal before the House, I was par...

Lord Elton | 698 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, rightly reminded us that we are all responsible for our ...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 698 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened with great care to the outstanding opening speech of the noble Baroness, Lady W...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I tried to telephone the Public Bill Office to add my name to the amendment, but for some ...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 698 c505 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I do not think that we have altogether fully realised that ...

Baroness Warnock | 698 c505 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to this amendment. I have a strong feeling that the proper thing to do is to...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 698 c501-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 146: 146: Schedule 6, page 72, line 12, at end insert— ““(1) The Authority sha...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 698 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for a very interesting debate, which in some ways achieves at least one of m...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I hesitated to intervene earlier; I interv...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c486 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know that the noble Lord raised—

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 698 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, might I bring some information to this debate? For eight years, I chaired the Human Geneti...

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 698 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is initially something attractive about the idea of a national bioethics committee, ...

Lord Patten | 698 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been speaking succinctly, as I am sure the Chief Whip recognises, and I shall respo...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was rising to mention the point about order, but I will now sit down.

Bishop of St Albans | 698 c492-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to begin this brief speech by reminding the House of some words of Professor...

Lord Warner | 698 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may share with the House my experience as a Health Minister who commissioned a p...

Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve | 698 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have an opportunity here, but I hope that we do not take it. Let me try to explain why....

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c476-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to address the three amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, which wer...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c474-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 142: 142: Clause 46, leave out Clause 46 The noble and learned Lord said: My ...

Lord Elton | 698 c473 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on having sussed this out.

Earl Howe | 698 c471-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 141A: 141A: Clause 35, page 36, line 23, leave out subsection (2) The noble E...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 698 c479-84 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 143: 143: After Clause 56, insert the following new Clause— ““National Human B...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord said about the general situation; however, I only moved t...

Lord Patten | 698 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and I recognise the clarity with which ...

Lord Turnberg | 698 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, as one expects, makes a very eloquent case, but I wish to raise o...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 698 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having listened now for several days to the debates on this Bill, including the debates we...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 698 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an exceptionally complex and very sensitive area. If the noble and learned Lord, L...

Baroness Barker | 698 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, throughout the Bill’s passage we on this Front Bench have been mindful of the fact that sc...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 698 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems to me that the point that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, was addressing, more than t...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is true that the thrust of the noble Lord’s amendment is that the basic definitions use...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c471 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 140 and 141: 140: Clause 31, page 34, line 35, leave out ““inter-species emb...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c471 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 138 and 139: 138: Clause 30, page 33, line 28, leave out ““or 19B(2) (which ...

Lord Patel | 698 c469-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response, and thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I partic...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 698 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the noble Lord, Lord Patel, clarify that he is talking not about research teams and p...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c463 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 135: 135: Clause 28, page 32, line 6, leave out ““inter-species embryo”” and i...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c463 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136: 136: Clause 29, page 32, line 28, leave out ““inter-species embryos”” and...

Lord Patel | 698 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137: 137: Clause 29, page 33, line 18, at end insert— ““(10B) It is a defence ...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 698 c465 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may throw into the debate some worries I have about what appears to be an eminen...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the important points that the noble Baroness has just made. I was delighted to h...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 698 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the many lessons I learnt at the other end of the Corridor, during a very long time...

Lord Patel | 698 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. Most of all, I thank those noble Lords who so stron...

Lord Winston | 698 c463 (Link to this contribution) To a single one.

Lord Patel | 698 c463 (Link to this contribution) Touché. I hope that when the Minister says she will look at this and will ask her department to look...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c463 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134: 134: Clause 26, page 30, line 40, leave out ““inter-species embryos”” and...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 698 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that if I found myself...

Baroness Barker | 698 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Patel, as I did in Committee. I have always been slightly s...

Lord Turnberg | 698 c458 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support the amendment not so much because of the impact on the medical professi...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is an important and valid question. At this stage, the answer is not clear to me eith...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c460-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, address the important issue of the disclosur...

Lord Winston | 698 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to give a brief scenario. A woman is attending for in vitro fertilisation an...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 698 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment and I will point out a problem that I can see arising if it is not...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 698 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very heartily support the amendment. No privilege attaches to communications between doc...

Lord Winston | 698 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have pointed out in the past that confidentiality is a really difficult issue. Numerous ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c455 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will have to come back to the noble Lord with clarification on that issue. I will gladly...

Lord Winston | 698 c455 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, I have had personal experience of exactly that happen...

Earl Howe | 698 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in favour of the amendment, as it undoubtedly i...

Lord Patel | 698 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 132: 132: Clause 25, page 26, line 22, leave out ““of information falling with...

Lord Walton of Detchant | 698 c454 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, wish to support the amendment very warmly for the reasons so lucidly put forward b...

Lord Patten | 698 c454 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not go through the arguments so fluently advanced by my noble friend on the Front B...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Bill allows for donor-conceived people to contact the HFEA on reaching the age of 16 t...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 698 c455 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the Minister sits down, there is one problem that has been put to me about this. I ...

Lord Elton | 698 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend’s scenario suggests that such things happen at a great pace and science al...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c453 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment. The noble Earl has put a very good case to the Ho...

Earl Howe | 698 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 131: 131: Clause 24, page 21, line 2, leave out ““has the same meaning as in s...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c452 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 127: 127: Clause 23, page 19, line 6, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ““(...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c452 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 128: 128: Clause 23, page 19, line 6, at e...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c452 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 124 and 125: 124: Clause 22, page 18, line 12, leave out ““inter-species emb...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c451 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 120: 120: Clause 16, page 12, line 15, leave out ““inter-species embryos”” and...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c451 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 121 and 122: 121: Clause 17, page 12, line 25, leave out ““inter-species emb...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113: 113: Clause 14, page 10, line 42, leave out ““of training persons in the ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his answer and for reiterating what was said last t...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not disputing the scientific advances in that field. The exact accuracy of which week...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c531 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the noble Lord also confirm to the House that babies have been born as early as 21 we...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c536 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recognise the strength of feeling expressed by all noble Lords, including my noble frien...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 698 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment, as I did when it was moved in Committee. One of the most importa...

Baroness O'Cathain | 698 c535 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as a point of clarification, perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, about the ...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c535 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like strongly to support, as I did at earlier stages, the principles underlining ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c533-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 164: "164: Clause 59, insert the following new Clause—""““Infertility services""...

Lord Geddes | 698 c532 (Link to this contribution) Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn?

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 698 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. It has been illustrated tonight that a committee ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the support from around the House. We are having a brief recap of the de...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c538 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 176 to 178: "176: Schedule 8, page 102, line 18, column 2, leave out from ““se...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c538 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 168 to 175: 168: Schedule 7, page 98, line 22, leave out ““inter-species embr...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c538 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will certainly look into that suggestion. However, the Government would hesitate to put ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c538 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 165 to 167: "165: Clause 60, page 50, line 2, leave out ““inter-species embryo...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c538 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, but on behalf of our missing friends I am seeking a perm...

Lord Elton | 698 c450 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister said in his opening paragraph, quite understandably, that it would not be app...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the House knows, the Government have—as previous Governments before them—a neutral stan...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 698 c448 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 111A: 111A: Clause 14, page 9, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) For the purposes ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Earl on his probing of the law on surrogacy. It is a comple...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 698 c458 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very impressed by those noble Lords who have spoken who are members of the medical pr...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 123: 123: Clause 19, page 15, line 19, leave out ““Authority”” and insert ““Se...

Baroness O'Cathain | 698 c537 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know that I should not do this, but let me say that the real issue is local affluence or...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c522-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Gould; she knows, as I said in Committee, that I have a ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 698 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would add a further defence to the Hum...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 698 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 114 to 118: 114: Clause 15, page 11, line 14, leave out ““inter-species embr...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 698 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, has the noble Baroness given any consideration to a suggestion that I think the noble Lord...

Lord Patten | 698 c486 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I have explained the point that I was making, I shall give way with my usual alacrity...

Earl Howe | 698 c474 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I can ask for no more than what she has kindl...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 698 c537 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. For example, I know Peterborough and Waveney PCTs ...