Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 12 December 2007, in the House of Lords.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 25 to 69 agreed to. Schedules 5 to 8 agreed to. Bill reported without amendment.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

697 c246-318

Session

2007-08

Proceeding contributions

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c256 (Link to this contribution) I will not do my noble friend justice if I answer that question. I will seek opinion in relation to ...

Lord Turnberg | 697 c256 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, does the European directive include any suggestion that criminal p...

Show all contributions (132)

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c257 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s intervention. The data released will be based on the research...

Baroness O'Cathain | 697 c257 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister finally, finally sits down, could he explain two things? First, can the data be ...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c257 (Link to this contribution) At the moment, we are collecting a significant amount of data which we have not been able to analyse...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 697 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord finally sits down, may I ask him two questions relating to this important issu...

Lord Turnberg | 697 c261 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Alton, makes an extremely good case for a forum at which the many and varied et...

Baroness Deech | 697 c261-3 (Link to this contribution) The idea put before us is a good one in principle but I think it has been oversold for three reasons...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c258-61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 66: 66: After Clause 32, insert the following new Clause— ““National Human Bio...

Lord Winston | 697 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) We should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for raising this issue and for moving the amend...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c246 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Lord Patel | 697 c247-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 64A: 64A: Clause 25, page 26, line 22, leave out from ““is”” to ““made”” in li...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 697 c256 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, in his response to the two amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Patel...

Earl Howe | 697 c252 (Link to this contribution) It is extremely helpful to hear that from the noble Lord, Lord Winston. At the same time, it would b...

Lord Davies of Coity | 697 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand that we want to regulate the arrangements in the most appropriate way, but I have to ad...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c253-6 (Link to this contribution) Although the provisions on access to information are not, perhaps, the most high-profile element of ...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Winston, was right to take us back to the debate that we had about OH...

Baroness Barker | 697 c251 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Patel. He and I have discussed this matter at some length ove...

Earl Howe | 697 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 65 is grouped here and I shall speak to it briefly. New Clause 33C will enable the ...

Lord Winston | 697 c252 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for giving way. However I do not think that anyone is pl...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c317 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this informative debate on this sensitive subject. The amendment tabled by the nob...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 697 c317-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. It is not the fault of this amendment that we have sat so l...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c318 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Baroness saying that everybody whose name is on an amendment should speak to it or shou...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 697 c318 (Link to this contribution) They usually speak after the mover. That has been the practice for many years but it has lapsed. It ...

Lord Sewel | 697 c315 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, says—it is right and proper to aerate arguments ...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c315 (Link to this contribution) I do not entirely understand that intervention. This is the fourth Committee day of the Human Fertil...

Baroness Tonge | 697 c316 (Link to this contribution) I sat down in courtesy to give way to an intervention, and I did not expect to have everything that ...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c316 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I catch the sense of the Committee in thinking that, with all honour to the three n...

Baroness Tonge | 697 c316 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall not give way again if the noble Lord will excuse me. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord ...

Lord Sewel | 697 c315 (Link to this contribution) I speak with some reservation tonight. I have followed the debate today largely through my televisio...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 697 c314 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the noble Baronesses, Lady Masham, Lady Wilkins and Lady Campbell, for the courageo...

Baroness Tonge | 697 c314 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lords and the right reverend Prelate in particular who were expecting not to ...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c313 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy to answer that now. The poll was commissioned by the charity Life and carried out b...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c313-4 (Link to this contribution) I may surprise the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, but I agree with him on the poin...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c308-12 (Link to this contribution) I support the comment that has just been made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about the way in which w...

Earl Howe | 697 c307-8 (Link to this contribution) I have a completely open mind about the repeal of the subsections. However, with great respect to th...

Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 697 c306-7 (Link to this contribution) I did not know that the first time I spoke in this Chamber after my maiden speech it would be on som...

Baroness Wilkins | 697 c305-6 (Link to this contribution) My name is down to this amendment and I strongly support it on the grounds of equal human rights. As...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c294-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for giving way. Before he leaves that point, I should li...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c294 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is the implication at all. I think it is a failure on the part of the Gov...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c294 (Link to this contribution) I take exception to being told that if this is a government Bill and members of my party, to which I...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c293-4 (Link to this contribution) It certainly did not seem to me that the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, justified what ...

Baroness Barker | 697 c291-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 68A, which I tabled in part because, as was the case with our discuss...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 697 c291 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 68A or 68B.

Baroness Deech | 697 c289-91 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68: 68: Schedule 6, page 72, line 12, leave out paragraphs 1 to 9 The noble B...

Lord Grocott | 697 c289 (Link to this contribution) I think the mood of the Committee would be that we should go through now and complete it. There are ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c289 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that we are not breaking for dinner?

Lord Grocott | 697 c289 (Link to this contribution) Before we begin the next group and just so that noble Lords know precisely what is happening I shoul...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c296-7 (Link to this contribution) We are discussing Amendments Nos. 68, 69 and 70, which were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech...

Baroness Warnock | 697 c298 (Link to this contribution) I must support my noble friend. I have now become bewildered about the relation between what we talk...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c298 (Link to this contribution) Before leaving that point, does my noble friend not believe that there is some danger of contradicti...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c296 (Link to this contribution) I remember that discussion during the passage of the previous legislation, and I respect the noble B...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c295 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene—perhaps I am not really very sorry, but I ought to apologise and say how gra...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c296 (Link to this contribution) The point is that it is part of the responsibilities of a cleric preparing to solemnise a marriage u...

Baroness Barker | 697 c296 (Link to this contribution) I did not understand the point the right reverend Prelate was making. My understanding is that civil...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c295 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister. Although I was not regretting it already, that discussion makes ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c295 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may say one thing. As my noble friend Lady Hollis pointed out, this is a government Bill, ...

Baroness Barker | 697 c283 (Link to this contribution) I simply wanted to make a point that a number of noble Lords have made. It is not that we believe th...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c282-3 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make one other point about the excellent work that the Nuffield Council does and th...

Baroness Barker | 697 c282 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c282 (Link to this contribution) It would be surprising if the noble Baroness, as a former leader of your Lordships’ House, did not m...

Baroness Deech | 697 c285-6 (Link to this contribution) Maybe we can speak plainly about this and scrape away some of the difficulties of a lengthy clause, ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c283-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 66A: 66A: Clause 39, page 37, line 43, at beginning insert ““either the man wa...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c283 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has made my point for me; it was argued earlier that the existing Science and Tec...

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 697 c282 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. The noble Lord said—and it was confirmed by the noble Lord, Lord Patten—that the ca...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c282 (Link to this contribution) I can do no better in responding than quoting the memorandum of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, again,...

Lord Patten | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is being extremely patient. Does he agree that in some of the remarks made there is a...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c288 (Link to this contribution) Of course anyone can withdraw consent at any time. That is completely clear. In previous debates the...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c288 (Link to this contribution) I speak as one who agrees entirely, though my agreement does not have the weight of what the noble B...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c288 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the comments from across the Committee. I hope the clarification may be helpf...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c288 (Link to this contribution) I merely wanted to point out that the noble Baroness referred in her original amendment—with which I...

Baroness Deech | 697 c289 (Link to this contribution) I was proposing to include a reference to Clause 46 in the forthcoming larger group beginning with A...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c287 (Link to this contribution) I would like to explore further the issue of consent. I was talking about an advance statement, whic...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c287 (Link to this contribution) Clause 39 replaces, for the future, the provisions inserted into the 1990 Act by the Human Fertilisa...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c287-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. Perhaps I may sum up. My understanding is that what could be considered to be an...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c287 (Link to this contribution) I shall respond fully in writing, but my understanding is that if written consent is given, as in th...

Baroness Barker | 697 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to take part in the debate, but I was spurred to do so by the remarks of the righ...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c277-8 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. As far as the Human Genetics Commission is concerned, it is free to set its own work plan...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply although I am disappointed that the Government do...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c276 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that it has statutory weight, but it is a body whose expertise, knowledge and repor...

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 697 c277 (Link to this contribution) All I would like to add to what the Minister has said is that it is a body totally independent of go...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) This has been an important and, certainly, informed discussion. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lor...

Lord Patten | 697 c276 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness who, like me, is not a scientist, but handles these scientific issues with gr...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 697 c275 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my noble friend, Lord Alton, on his very elegant speech. It was quite a long time ago...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) That is the nature of monotheism.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) On a point of clarification, it is not impossible, but such a person would find their position sligh...

Lord Turnberg | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) I agree—

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) I was happy to give way, but to put us procedurally in order I must give way to noble Lord, Lord Tur...

Lord Turnberg | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) Are we talking about the human bioethics commission or the HEFA? They are two separate bodies, const...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my noble friend has confirmed what he said in a debate the other day—that it would be...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. There is an issue of good faith and bad faith; we have raised that ...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness agree that the words ““sabotage”” and ““subvert”” have a particular sharpnes...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) I agree that some people may come on with less pronounced views than others, in which case it may le...

Lord Winston | 697 c263 (Link to this contribution) I am a little surprised. I thought that the speech I had just made was entirely about the risks. The...

Lord Northbourne | 697 c263 (Link to this contribution) I am not referring to the immediate clinical risks, I am talking about how these techniques may be u...

Lord Northbourne | 697 c263 (Link to this contribution) Surely the process of making wise decisions depends on a balance between the advantages and risks of...

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 697 c265 (Link to this contribution) Before I come on to my main point, I shall put what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, sai...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 697 c265 (Link to this contribution) I was not objecting to the chairmanship of the noble and right reverend Lord or to what happened in ...

Lord Winston | 697 c263 (Link to this contribution) On a point of information, I understand that the particular organisation which stores the sperm of N...

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 697 c264-5 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and the noble Baroness, Lady ...

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 697 c267 (Link to this contribution) I intervene only on the basis of having heard what the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said. I think that ...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 697 c267 (Link to this contribution) I feel impelled to make one or two brief comments. I am somewhat troubled at what I heard a moment o...

Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 697 c267 (Link to this contribution) It is my belief that he did. I merely want to support the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. When a Bill ...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c267-9 (Link to this contribution) I align myself with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and with the speech at Second Reading of the noble L...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 697 c269 (Link to this contribution) My experience, from when I chaired a research ethics committee locally in Scotland some time ago, is...

Baroness Jay of Paddington | 697 c270 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, on her practical experience of local ethics issues. I am ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to rise because so many noble Lords have already spoken and time is moving on. I have lis...

Lord Patten | 697 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) In supporting these amendments, I wish to concentrate almost entirely on the make-up of the proposed...

Baroness Warnock | 697 c273 (Link to this contribution) I shall briefly to go back to the words of my noble and right reverend friend Lord Harries, because ...

Lord Tombs | 697 c273-4 (Link to this contribution) I am reluctant to prolong this very informative discussion, but there are one or two points that I w...

Lord Tombs | 697 c274 (Link to this contribution) I shall not go into them, because they would provoke further argument and extend the discussion to n...

Lord Patten | 697 c274 (Link to this contribution) Hear, hear!

Baroness Williams of Crosby | 697 c298-9 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to the question just asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. Let me say immediat...

Baroness Barker | 697 c299 (Link to this contribution) In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I hope to help the whole Committee. There is no contrad...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 697 c300 (Link to this contribution) I will clarify the position in response to the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. The...

Baroness Deech | 697 c300 (Link to this contribution) There is still some cloudiness over this issue. A birth certificate is not a social record but a his...

Baroness Barker | 697 c300 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to detain the Committee, but the noble Baroness has reminded me of something that I asked...

Baroness Deech | 697 c300 (Link to this contribution) Speaking as a former family lawyer, I am sure that civil partnerships are fine for those who wish th...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 697 c301-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 71: 71: Before Clause 59, insert the following new Clause— ““Amendment of law ...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 697 c302-4 (Link to this contribution) I oppose the amendment. I must declare an interest as chair of the Pro-Choice and Sexual Health Grou...

Bishop of Winchester | 697 c304-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to enter into the debate, but the appearance of the amendment tabled by the noble Ba...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c305 (Link to this contribution) I completely concur with the remarks that have just been made. The complexity of the ethics and the ...

Lord Patel | 697 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for their comments. Firs...

Lord Sewel | 697 c316 (Link to this contribution) I—

Baroness Deech | 697 c297-8 (Link to this contribution) I think there is still confusion about the purpose of a birth certificate. It is not to legitimise o...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 697 c289 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that Clause 46 stand part of the Bill.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth | 697 c265-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall focus on the amendments before us. I welcome the fact that we are having this discussion. It...

Lord Darzi of Denham | 697 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Baroness's intervention. I will seek legal opinion on that, but if the B...

Baroness Barker | 697 c313 (Link to this contribution) I, like other noble Lords, well recall the noble Lord, Lord Alton, calling on us at Second Reading n...

Lord Patel | 697 c275 (Link to this contribution) If we were to have such a committee, I would support the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and the noble Ba...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c281 (Link to this contribution) They are different; I was about to make that point. The parallel I was drawing was that it is not im...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 697 c280 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has just reminded me that it is the nature of monotheism. It may also be the natu...