UK Parliament / Open data

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 10 December 2007, in the House of Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

697 c1-52GC 

Session

2007-08

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Related items

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill (HL). (Explanatory Notes HL Bill 2-EN published).
Wednesday, 7 November 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c8GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness would be so kind, I would like to reassure her—because she will have taken ver...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 697 c3-4GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a member of the Commission on Unclaimed Assets, ably chaired by the Sir Ron...

Show all contributions (130)
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken, particularly to the noble Baroness, L...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c10-1GC (Link to this contribution) We may be surprised by what the Minister says but my guess is that he will defend the voluntary sche...
Lord Newby | 697 c14-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I agree with the Minister that ...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c13GC (Link to this contribution) Did the noble Lord answer the question about reserve powers in the Bill, and whether compulsion shou...
Lord Newby | 697 c33GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to repeat the eloquent speeches that noble Lords have already made on Amendment No. 10...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c30-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: Clause 2, page 2, line 1, leave out ““smaller”” The noble Baroness said...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank both noble Lords. I agree with everything that has been said and, in particular, the bureauc...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) Oh, it was the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, who asked that question. I hoped that I was going to answer...
Lord Higgins | 697 c44GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said it is singularly ill-informed press comment. Is it in fact the case that the admin...
Lord Skelmersdale | 697 c50GC (Link to this contribution) That is all very well, but one of the Bill’s purposes is for funds from this particular conglomerati...
Lord Higgins | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) That is what I understood; namely, that the revenue is higher than it would otherwise be if the Bill...
Lord Bach | 697 c24-5GC (Link to this contribution) I take seriously the noble Lord’s point about the way in which the subsection is drafted. Perhaps we...
Lord Newby | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) This raises the question of how the reclaim fund invests the money. Potentially, it could be require...
Lord Bach | 697 c24GC (Link to this contribution) It is certainly an issue. I repeat the basic principle that the customers will be repaid the amount ...
Lord Naseby | 697 c4-5GC (Link to this contribution) As we are giving an overview, I should make it clear that I have been involved in the mutual movemen...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c4GC (Link to this contribution) It is not surprising that the banks are not happy about giving up their dormant accounts because the...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c12GC (Link to this contribution) When the voluntary negotiations with the banks and building societies were going on, they must have ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c12GC (Link to this contribution) We have a broad range of figures for the money that may be available through the scheme. I could not...
Lord Newby | 697 c9-10GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out from ““applies”” to end of line 8 an...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c14GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be tedious about this, but the starting point is important. There are many referenc...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c13-4GC (Link to this contribution) Within the Bill’s framework is the underpinning that it will be an Act of Parliament. Regulation wil...
Lord Naseby | 697 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the noble Baroness. In relation to Amendment No. 13, I do not think that any of us...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution) There is an element of compulsion in Amendment No. 8 for all building societies and smaller banks. T...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 1, page 1, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) A bank must transfer up ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c27GC (Link to this contribution) ““Holder”” would probably do it, and that is one word.
Lord Higgins | 697 c27GC (Link to this contribution) Then ““dormant account holder”” is preferable.
Lord Bach | 697 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising this issue. I share her high opinion of the Law Soci...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c36GC (Link to this contribution) We must stop cross-dressing on each other’s speeches! I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in...
Lord Naseby | 697 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene in my noble friend’s comments. I do not know whether the Minister has ever s...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I had expected that the Minister would say that Clause 8 was the source of the answer. I shall invit...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) Well, it is opportunistic in the context of this Bill. After all, noble Lords elsewhere in the House...
Lord Higgins | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for answering that point, although why on this amendment I a...
Lord Skelmersdale | 697 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) It is not normally my habit to interfere in Bills run by my fellow Front-Benchers but, as I moved th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c44-5GC (Link to this contribution) No. Normally when the press is speculating on clashes within government, from my perspective I am al...
Lord Skelmersdale | 697 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) The situation might be much clearer to my noble friend, but I am afraid that I am not convinced. The...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) The Revenue will collect only from the person reclaiming the account—that would be the case at prese...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) How is this supposed to work? If a bank transfers £100 from a dormant account to the reclaim fund an...
Lord Higgins | 697 c20GC (Link to this contribution) Of course the Minister is right—I am replying, not him—but I was not clear about the Government’s vi...
Lord Higgins | 697 c19-20GC (Link to this contribution) A number of helpful points have emerged. On the one-stop shop argument, it is a question whether som...
Lord Naseby | 697 c20GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend mentioned small building societies. They are very regional; there is no point in a s...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c17GC (Link to this contribution) It was not until my noble friend stood up that I realised that he had such a wealth of experience to...
Lord Bach | 697 c26GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that, wherever the word ““customer”” appears, the noble Lord would change it to ““owner...
Lord Higgins | 697 c26GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, leave out ““customer”””” and insert ““owner”””...
Lord Monson | 697 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord is wrong. Interest is normally deducted at 20 per cent on ordinary depos...
Lord Bach | 697 c27GC (Link to this contribution) I understand what the noble Lord is saying but perhaps we can agree that, if I am right about the le...
Lord Bach | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, it is a responsibility of the banks.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 697 c1GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that anyone said that this would be easy. I did not think that the Government were he...
Lord Naseby | 697 c8GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s answer on timing left me a little confused. I think he was saying that because the re...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c11GC (Link to this contribution) Commercial considerations would suggest that it makes a lot of sense for a bank to agree to do this,...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 697 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think there is any doubt that robust self-regulation and total commitment to the scheme is ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c10GC (Link to this contribution) I should perhaps outline our position. Although we have considerable sympathy with what the noble Lo...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c8-9GC (Link to this contribution) We all look forward to getting to Part 2 at some stage during Grand Committee. However, I just leave...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c13GC (Link to this contribution) I have trouble with estimation but not with process. The banks will publish their policies on how th...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c13GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain what leverage there is? Unless one knows how much dormant account money the...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c13GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we can impose on the banks a quota on the amounts they can realise because they ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c28GC (Link to this contribution) I shall not comment in detail on the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, because m...
Lord Higgins | 697 c27GC (Link to this contribution) I think we had better think about it between now and Report. My present view is that ““customer”” is...
Lord Bach | 697 c27GC (Link to this contribution) We could say ““dormant account holder”” but that is three words where we think one will do, and it a...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c37GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11A: 11A: Clause 2, page 2, line 18, leave out ““the balance”” and insert ““th...
Lord Naseby | 697 c35GC (Link to this contribution) They are not. I assure the Minister that the big building societies are not happy with this scheme. ...
Lord Newby | 697 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution) We have considerable sympathy with the noble Baroness to the extent that the pension protection life...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c40GC (Link to this contribution) As I have indicated, the fund has running costs. That is all I was prepared to vouchsafe as a contri...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c40-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, who is right that it is a question of judgment....
Baroness Noakes | 697 c39GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister might even have an opportunity now. He has answered one specific point covered by the a...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: 12: Clause 2, page 2, line 22, after ““account”” insert ““only”” The nobl...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to help here. There are three jobs for the reclaim fund. First, it has to keep proper re...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) With respect, that does not quite answer the question. Just to say that something is regulated does ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c39GC (Link to this contribution) I indicated that the company that is established will be subject to financial services regulations. ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken, including those who have made a special effort to ...
Lord Newby | 697 c50GC (Link to this contribution) While the noble Baroness thinks about the hierarchy, I have a further couple of comments to make. If...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c48-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 20: 20: Clause 5, page 4, line 10, leave out ““15(1)”” and insert ““15”” The ...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c47-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale for reminding us that 90 per cent of core pension...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, asked about my hierarchy of amb...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 697 c52GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at 3.30 pm.
Lord Bach | 697 c22-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, for Amendment No. 4, which makes clear that when a ba...
Lord Higgins | 697 c21GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, after ““account”” insert ““including interest ...
Lord Monson | 697 c21-2GC (Link to this contribution) I was slightly surprised that my Amendment No. 32 was grouped with Amendment No. 4 as Amendment No. ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c20GC (Link to this contribution) I am not going to reply. It is the noble Lord’s amendment, so he does the replying. However, I shall...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c21GC (Link to this contribution) I am awfully sorry—I translated the sum into modern currency. That would certainly not fall within t...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c21GC (Link to this contribution) We are not seeking to prescribe in those terms—it is for the institutions to prescribe. But it is ob...
Lord Higgins | 697 c17GC (Link to this contribution) It did not seem to us a particular problem at the time. I suppose that if you use just the name then...
Lord Monson | 697 c18GC (Link to this contribution) Although I understand and to a considerable extent sympathise with the argument put by the noble Lor...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c26GC (Link to this contribution) Can I just clarify that? The Minister said that he cannot use the word ““owner”” because it has a sp...
Lord Higgins | 697 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those who have contributed to this debate. It was what I would call an ““onion-peel...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c24GC (Link to this contribution) There is another issue here—the rate of interest. The Committee will be aware that banks and buildin...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) So, in my example, the reclaim fund would have to pay the additional £20 even though it had received...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c3GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 16, but before I do so, I say that we, too, are here to widen the Bil...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c1-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert— ““( ) This section and section ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 697 c4GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not participating in the debate at Second Reading and for juggling this Bill and the...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c5-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. I am sorry about the trou...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting first debate. I notice that the Minister did not ask me to withdraw my am...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that further contribution. I think the Minister will have received the m...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c12-3GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, asked whether the banks were completely involved in the scheme. Can bank...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c14GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned FSA regulation as a part of the scheme that will ensure that the money is pai...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c14GC (Link to this contribution) That is an important point and we shall have a chance to discuss it later. The Committee would not w...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c14GC (Link to this contribution) I was not suggesting that the FSA had that position but identifying that it has an important role in...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for the way in which he moved the amendment. Two different perspecti...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c35GC (Link to this contribution) I hope I paid due regard to the role of building societies, whatever their size, with regard to loca...
Lord Newby | 697 c36GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness also accept that the Nationwide’s priorities over the period to 2010 are dom...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. We are to a certain extent straining...
Viscount Eccles | 697 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendments Nos. 9, 13 and the question that Clause 3 stand part of the Bill, because, whil...
Baroness Noakes | 697 c41-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19: 19: Clause 5, page 4, line 9, after ““money”” insert ““to the Pension Prot...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) The reclaim fund is a company run by the private sector and regulated by the FSA. We expect it to ac...
Lord Higgins | 697 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I have a sense of déjà vu. I should have looked up my earlier speeches on the FAS and read them out ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c51GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate, particularly to the noble Lo...
Lord Shutt of Greetland | 697 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) It just occurs to me that it would be right to ask a question of the noble Baroness. I am not trying...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) That is the case, of course. If noble Lords pressed me from every side to have the most extensive ca...
Lord Higgins | 697 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for picking up this point at this stage, rather than waiti...
Lord Bach | 697 c52GC (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the Committee be adjourned until tomorrow afternoon at 3.30 pm.
Lord Higgins | 697 c21GC (Link to this contribution) Obviously, if one sets the figure very high the number of claimants is likely to be lower. I am slig...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c18-9GC (Link to this contribution) The whole Committee is at one on the objective, which is as far as possible to reunite people with t...
Lord Monson | 697 c19GC (Link to this contribution) Although this is not strictly germane to the Bill, can the Minister try to persuade company registra...
Lord Higgins | 697 c20GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has come precisely to the points that I was going to make. With regard to the smalle...
Lord Higgins | 697 c15-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, after ““society”” insert ““, having advertised...
Lord Newby | 697 c17-8GC (Link to this contribution) We absolutely support the noble Lord in his view that one of the main aims of the legislation should...
Lord Higgins | 697 c26-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am not particularly keen on the word ““monkey”” as an alternative. I believe it has financial impl...
Lord Monson | 697 c26GC (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly support the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, in this amendment.
Lord Higgins | 697 c25-6GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend, who knows more about tax than I do, says, ““Yes, probably””. That is probably true,...
Lord Bach | 697 c25GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will allow us, we will write to him with the correct answer to his previous questi...
Lord Monson | 697 c24GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, will obviously decide what he wants to do about Amendment No. 4, but p...
Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 697 c25GC (Link to this contribution) There are two points here. Bank deposits yield money gross, and building societies pay the tax. Is t...
Lord Bach | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) I believe the noble Lord is right.
Lord Bach | 697 c23GC (Link to this contribution) In part, the voluntary nature of this enterprise means that I cannot give the noble Baroness a direc...

Subjects

Charities
Assets
Bank services
Banks
Building societies
Insurance
Interest charges
Pensions
Lotteries
Repayments
Taxation
Big Lottery Fund

Legislation

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill (HL) 2007-08

Link

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