UK Parliament / Open data

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 5 July 2007, in the House of Lords.
Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Part 2 of 2 records. Clauses 2-6, 9, 11 and 13-51 agreed to. Clauses 7, 8, 10 and 12 agreed to as amended.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

693 c1167-222 

Session

2006-07

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 74-EN also published.
Wednesday, 23 May 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) I propose that Clause 51 should stand part of the Bill. It deals with a case in which the Electoral ...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1222 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful for that. I will read it very carefully and will have a happy half hour chas...

Show all contributions (124)
Lord Greaves | 693 c1221 (Link to this contribution) The reason I tabled my objection to the Question whether this clause should stand part is that I did...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe there is any evidence at all and I shall be very interested to see what the Ministe...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the noble Baroness will accept that we are very committed to evidence-based policy-making....
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I am open to the arguments on either side. I come from a whole-council election tradition, and I und...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1220 (Link to this contribution) Having enjoyed making a Second Reading speech on behalf of my noble friend, I will not make another ...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1218-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 69: 69: Clause 37, page 21, line 3, leave out ““non-metropolitan”” The noble ...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1217-8 (Link to this contribution) I did not imagine that the Government would agree with me on this, which is all to do with people at...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I hope to provide some clarity following these interesting and important probing amendments, which w...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1215 (Link to this contribution) Out of curiosity, is the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggesting that authorities in the same class cou...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1213 (Link to this contribution) We agree with the general thrust of these amendments: the electors of an area should be consulted. T...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1213 (Link to this contribution) We seem to be in some difficulty about how prescriptive we should be. As presently worded, the Bill ...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1212 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s comments and from other noble Lords who have taken part. I have to ...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1212 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: Clause 33, page 19, line 15, leave out ““such”” and insert ““local ele...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1214 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and everyone else for their comments. As we go through the Bill, many of us wil...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1214-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 65: 65: Clause 33, page 19, line 19, leave out subsections (4) to (6) The nob...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 693 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I understand the motivation behind the amendments, but I agree with my noble friend Lord Hanningfiel...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1213-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for tabling his amendment and giving us the opportunity for this brief but im...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I would be delighted if the clauses were pre-empted. My amendments stem from curiosity about why the...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1215 (Link to this contribution) Briefly on the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, one of our problems is that the public al...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15A: 15A: Clause 3, page 3, line 18, at end insert— ““(c) the potential impact...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1199 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: 48: Clause 12, page 9, line 11, leave out ““existing councillors”” and ins...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1200-2 (Link to this contribution) I will take noble Lords through what Clauses 14 and 15 actually do. I hope that will answer the ques...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 693 c1202 (Link to this contribution) May I just ask the Minister whether the DCLG has given any thought to the classification of continui...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) In light of the discussions we have had over this section, I am very glad that I disaggregated these...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 693 c1200 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, links Clauses 14 and 15, could I just question the transitional ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I am fairly certain that while they are specific to this Act, as I have explained, several of the el...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her explanation. Clause 14 agreed to. Clause 15 agreed to. Clause 16 [Ag...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1202 (Link to this contribution) This is part of the dialogue that we are having, both with local authorities themselves and I presum...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1202 (Link to this contribution) This has turned into an interesting debate. I have just one more question for the Minister. Local au...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1203 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 50: 50: Clause 16, page 11, line 18, leave out ““from time to time”” The nobl...
Lord Tordoff | 693 c1195 (Link to this contribution) In calling Amendment No. 47, I have to point out to the Committee that were it to be agreed to, I sh...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1195 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: Clause 12, page 9, line 9, leave out paragraphs (h) to (k) The noble ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) Before I address that question, I will briefly say something for the record about the effects of the...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend withdraws her amendment, I would like to say one or two things. I do not want...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has asked some quite detailed questions about the process. It is worth saying that he...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1198 (Link to this contribution) To pursue this point a little further, I am astonished that people think that there is a need for a ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1199 (Link to this contribution) I have listened closely to the noble Lord, who has had a lot of experience on these things. Essentia...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1199 (Link to this contribution) I was just about to withdraw the amendment when my noble friend intervened, but it was well worth it...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1210 (Link to this contribution) We have some sympathy and agree that councils should be able to determine their own cycles or arrang...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1210-1 (Link to this contribution) I still think that there is good sense in this amendment. If after due deliberation it is felt that ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1209 (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful for the Minister’s reply on that. I think that it is essential. I beg leave to w...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1209-10 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 62: 62: Clause 32, page 19, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) A council must not p...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1209 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that explanation. Who is the person specified in the direction? Do we know?...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1209 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it will depend on the nature of the direction or whether there will be a deleg...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1207-9 (Link to this contribution) Removing the clauses would take away a very important safeguard of the interests of new authorities ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down—or even before the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, stands up—perhaps I...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 693 c1211 (Link to this contribution) I see this amendment as being rather more prescriptive than the noble Lord’s interpretation. The Gov...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1211 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend does so, I wonder whether the Government have any comment on a point to which...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 16 agreed to. Claus...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1204 (Link to this contribution) The clause suggests that the Secretary of State can make any corrections to an order. Does that appl...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that it is relative. The clause allows the Secretary of State to rectify a mistake in any ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. Clause 20 agreed to. Clause 21 [Pre-commencement invitations ...
Lord Tordoff | 693 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I understood that Amendment No. 50 was spoken to with Amendment No. 8. It is entirely up to the nobl...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1203 (Link to this contribution) Thank God it is Thursday afternoon. I have inadvertently spoken to the amendment already, again by r...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) It has been rather a surreal debate this afternoon, because for at least two-thirds of it we have be...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1205-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness, because there is really nothing perverse or sinister ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1206 (Link to this contribution) The Minister keeps talking about local authorities up and down the country. Let us be very specific ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 58: 58: Clause 24, page 16, line 19, at end insert— ““(5) Nothing in this chap...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1178-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26: 26: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Referendum in case ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) This takes us a little further—and a little further afield, too. Amendment No. 26 seeks to materiall...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for those not very helpful or supportive remarks. I hear what she says and I ta...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1180 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: 27: Clause 7, page 5, line 34, leave out paragraph (b) and insert— ““(b) s...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1177-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 22: 22: Clause 3, page 3, line 25, at end insert ““or— ““(c) declining the inv...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1178 (Link to this contribution) We do not think that the amendment is necessary. By definition, any invitation can be declined; for ...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1178 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that answer, which is not as helpful as it might have been. I beg lea...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 32: 32: Clause 8, page 6, line 6, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ““(2) W...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1181 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29: 29: Clause 7, page 5, line 40, leave out from ““consult”” to end of line 4...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1182 (Link to this contribution) We support most of these technical amendments. We are not quite certain what, "““the need to secure ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1172-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Members of the Committee for addressing their amendments in the way that they have....
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1175-6 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister clarify the position on the government amendments? In my own area of Suffolk, in th...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1169-70 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: 16: Clause 3, page 3, line 18, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of State...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendments Nos. 20A and 25 in this group, which both concern consultation, or the lack...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to say that I have never come across the situation of departments not talking to each...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1169 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that full explanation. I am sure that it will reassure the N...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1177 (Link to this contribution) If I have understood the Minister correctly, it is very helpful that the Secretary of State takes ac...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1176-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said, "““such other persons as he considers appropriate””." In discussions on this...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1176 (Link to this contribution) On the point of the noble Baroness, I understand that if anybody feels that they are going to be aff...
Lord Bruce-Lockhart | 693 c1176 (Link to this contribution) Please forgive me for being late. I have come straight from the local government conference in Birmi...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1187 (Link to this contribution) To follow that one up, does that mean that two London boroughs that wanted to get into bed together ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1187 (Link to this contribution) As far as I understand it, the Secretary of State can invite the Boundary Committee to do that, but ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1187 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is wise not to speculate, because we are in some trouble with this Bill. If, as has bee...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1187 (Link to this contribution) If that were the case, and they were able to go to the Boundary Committee—well, I shall have to take...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1188 (Link to this contribution) But that is not what the committee said. I do not understand why we have London boroughs—
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1188 (Link to this contribution) London boroughs are already unitary so the invitation process obviously does not apply to them. The ...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1188 (Link to this contribution) When committees try to draft they produce a camel, so it is said. I think we have started with a cam...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I am wrong. I am sorry; I am confusing the Committee. In fact, it is the general power of the Bounda...
Lord Greaves | 693 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) Reluctant as I am to interfere in London in any sense, I have two points. First, London may think th...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I agree, because I had read the provisions entirely in association with the previous clause. If that...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1183 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the noble Lord has understood the implications; neither do I. I will have to take...
Lord Hanningfield | 693 c1183 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand. If local authorities can create parish councils, even as part of any restructur...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1182 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord asked about the term ““convenient””. There might have been an opportunity for us to d...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1182 (Link to this contribution) Everyone in the Committee is sensitive to the political significance of boundary changes. Parties wi...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) This important group of amendments concerns London’s relationship with the restructuring proposed in...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I tabled Amendment No. 42 in this group, as the noble Baroness said. I share most of her concerns ab...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35: 35: Clause 8, page 6, line 30, at end insert— ““(e) an amalgamation of Lon...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1183 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 33 and 34: 33: Clause 8, page 6, line 11, leave out ““subsection (2)”” and i...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1186 (Link to this contribution) It is not really a point of detail, but I fear that I still find myself unclear on what proposals ar...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1186 (Link to this contribution) In a way, it would have been helpful if we had had a stand part debate on the clauses concerned, in ...
Lord Tordoff | 693 c1194 (Link to this contribution) I know that I am not allowed to join in the debate, but as a recent elector in Enfield, I found what...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1194 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1195 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 45 and 46: 45: Clause 12, page 8, line 44, after ““authority”” insert ““or p...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1193 (Link to this contribution) Given my experience in local government, I would appreciate written briefing from the Minister on an...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1192-3 (Link to this contribution) I will address the amendment and speak briefly to Clause 12 stand part in order to explain some of t...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Not for the first time it is a pleasure to have my noble friend on the Bench; his personal history i...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if the Minister can help me. My experience of amalgamation comes from the London Government...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 36 and 37: 36: Clause 8, page 6, line 30, at end insert— ““(4A) Where the Bo...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1191 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43: 43: Clause 11, page 8, line 19, leave out paragraph (c) The noble Barones...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 38 to 40: 38: Clause 10, page 7, line 25, leave out ““8”” and insert ““8(2)”...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I was not arguing about any of that. I was drawing attention to the fact that I am not sure what sub...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said that she intends to untangle it. A hiatus has been revealed and she has attemp...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Those clauses relate to the structural changes—no, they do not. I will have to write to the noble Ba...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Clauses 11 to 19, under ““Implementation of changes””, after the heading ““Boundary change””. It is ...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Are the powers in Clauses 11 to 19, under the heading ““Implementation of changes””—we will discuss ...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) If the Committee will indulge me, I have had some help—the cavalry have arrived—and I can explain wh...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1222 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Elton | 693 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I have to tell the Committee that if it agrees to the amendment, I shall be unable to call Amendment...
Baroness Scott of Needham Market | 693 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I would not want to pre-empt the excitement in Part 3 next week...
Baroness Hamwee | 693 c1199 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend’s questions have been helpful in disaggregating quite a package. In this clause, I f...
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Hanham | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) We need to untangle this because we are all talking at cross-purposes. I may have completely misunde...
Baroness Andrews | 693 c1190 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was both right and wrong. They apply to both parts of the Bill, but the purpose of writi...

Subjects

Constituencies
Devolution
Elections
Greater London
Local government
Referendums
Public participation
Parish and town councils
National parks
Local Government Boundary Commission for England

Legislation

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill 2006-07

Link

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