Armed Forces Bill. Lords report stage (HL Bill 163 2005-06)
Armed Forces Bill
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Reference
686 c167-240Session
2005-06Legislative stage
Report stageChamber / Committee
House of Lords chamberRelated items
Armed Forces Bill. As amended in Committee (HL). In 2 volumes.
Thursday, 12 October 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 12 October 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Garden | 686 c217 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I supported the noble Earl in Committee on what seemed a sensible amendment, seeking to ha...
Earl Attlee | 686 c216-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 66, line 4, leave out ““90”” and insert ““60””
The noble Earl said: ...
Show all contributions (116)
Earl Attlee | 686 c218-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am still a bit disappointed. The Minister mentioned actual bodily harm. It is sensible t...
Lord Drayson | 686 c217-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there has been much interest in the position of the commanding officer in the military cri...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c213-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. That is no mere trite acknowledgeme...
Lord Kingsland | 686 c214 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 33 and 34 are amendments to Amendment No. 32 in the name of my noble frien...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c214 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment No. 32, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c214-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 35:
After Clause 50, insert the following new clause-
““EXTRA-TERRITORIAL JURIS...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c210-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord says that rules of engagement change and so they do, but what is the status...
Lord Drayson | 686 c211-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and I will address his point in a moment. Rules of engagem...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, does that go for the other services?
Earl Attlee | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s amendments in this group, which are welcome. I do not sup...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c222-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, other matters arise in this grouping. The noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has followed some of t...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c224 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment No. 58. We have tabled the amendment again as it concerns an iss...
Earl Attlee | 686 c221 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for his comments on the amendment....
Lord Drayson | 686 c221-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 49:
Page 75, line 36, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert-
““(1) In t...
Lord Garden | 686 c220 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I welcome the fact that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has moved his amendment on administra...
Lord Drayson | 686 c220-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 38 to 48 seek to create a right of appeal to a form of tribunal against ce...
Earl Attlee | 686 c219-20 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 38:
After Clause 153, insert the following new clause-
““CHAPTER 5
THE ADMINIS...
Lord Garden | 686 c230 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I mean an independent member in the same sense as in the clause. Perhaps an independent me...
Earl Attlee | 686 c230 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, when the noble Lords refers to an independent member, does he mean someone with no militar...
Lord Boyce | 686 c225-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will make one or two comments about some amendments in the group. First, the noble Lord,...
Lord Drayson | 686 c226-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will now deal with Amendments Nos. 50, 51 and 58, which relate to how membership of the ...
Countess of Mar | 686 c228 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 have been entered wrongly on the Marshalled List, so I shall fir...
Lord Drayson | 686 c228 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 53:
Page 76, line 8, leave out ““other members of the court”” and insert ““lay...
Lord Drayson | 686 c228-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 54:
Page 76, line 9, at end insert-
““(4A) The number of lay members specified...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c229 (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 57:
Page 77, line 33, leave out from ““cha...
Lord Garden | 686 c229-30 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 61:
Page 171, line 6, at end insert ““or
( ) an independent member (see subsec...
Lord Drayson | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I can help the House. I am happy to debate this matter at Third Reading.
Lord Drayson | 686 c230-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 61 to 63 would require an independent member to be present on all service ...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c232 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we oppose the amendments in this group, which are an unnecessary addition, given the prese...
Lord Drayson | 686 c232-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we now return to what I previously called a key part of the Bill, on which I have written ...
Lord Garden | 686 c231 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not believe that the Minister said anything new this evening compared with his previo...
Lord Garden | 686 c231-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 66:
Before Clause 338, insert the following new clause-
““SERVICE COMPLAINTS C...
Earl Attlee | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not clear whether we are to debate this amendment or not.
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, under pressure from various sides, in view of the time, I was attempting—
Lord Garden | 686 c234-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I now find myself somewhat confused about ...
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 68:
After Clause 340, insert the following new clause-
““SPECIAL PROVISION FOR...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c237-8 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 70:
After Clause 343, insert the following new clause-
““RECORDS OF EVACUEES
Th...
Lord Garden | 686 c237 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. We at last seem to be getting towards a consensus on a way ...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also support this amendment, which, as my noble friend Lord Attlee said, he moved in Com...
Earl Attlee | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s flattery in tabling an amendment I tabled in Committee....
Lord Kingsland | 686 c236 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also lend our support to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Garden. As he indicated, ...
Baroness D'Souza | 686 c236 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is on the amendment, so it will come as no surprise to your Lordships that I suppo...
Earl Attlee | 686 c236-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the thrust of these amendments. For myself, I would be happier if the provision ...
Lord Garden | 686 c235-6 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 69:
After Clause 340, insert the following new clause-
““FLIGHTS BY FOREIGN AI...
Lord Garden | 686 c235 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c240 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 73 and 74:
Page 188, line 13, after ““sections”” insert ““36,””
Page 188, ...
Lord Inge | 686 c240 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply, particularly what he said about an induct...
Lord Drayson | 686 c239-40 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I recognise the strength of feeling on this important matter. As noble Lords and noble and...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c239 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is also on this amendment. The background of the Director of Service Prosecutions ...
Lord Boyce | 686 c239 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge. It is important th...
Lord Inge | 686 c238-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 71:
Page 185, line 10, at end insert-
““(2A) A person may be appointed as the ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is, in fact, in my name, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave...
Lord Drayson | 686 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I said in Committee, I recognise absolutely the deep importance of properly recording c...
Lord Garden | 686 c186-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 5, line 19, leave out ““life”” and insert ““ten years””
The noble Lo...
Lord Drayson | 686 c188 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I have already said, in Clause 8 we have sought to modernise and limit the offence of d...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c187 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we cannot support the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Garden, acknowledged in Committee...
Lord Garden | 686 c188 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his not unexpected reply. I do not doubt that in the past his pre...
Lord Garden | 686 c190-1 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 21:
Page 9, line 30, after ““orders”” insert ““or advice””
The noble Lord sai...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c191 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for again giving the House the opportunity t...
Viscount Slim | 686 c192 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden. My previous remarks on performance-enhancing...
Lord Drayson | 686 c192-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 seek to make it a defence that a drug was taken on the advice of...
Lord Garden | 686 c193 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the very helpful response to both questions that I raise...
Lord Drayson | 686 c193-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 27:
Page 16, line 13, leave out ““or””
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c202-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 32:
After Clause 49, insert the following new clause-
Compliance with orders an...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c201-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the very point I seek to make is that the European court has held that the system is not c...
Lord Ramsbotham | 686 c206 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am particularly anxious to get at least into the proceedings of the House, if not into t...
Lord Kingsland | 686 c204-6 (Link to this contribution)
moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 32, Amendment No. 33:
Line 2, at end insert-
““( ) The rul...
Lord Drayson | 686 c200-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but I thought that it was important to make that point.
...
Lord Drayson | 686 c209-10 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it would be difficult for me to overstate the importance of this subject, which is why we ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 686 c207 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, these are ingenious amendments or, more accurately, a new clause and amendments. If they a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c208 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are very sympathetic with the thinking behind these amendments, although we are not ver...
Lord Blaker | 686 c208-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate, but one point is not being sufficiently st...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 686 c209 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I cannot help wondering whether,...
Earl Attlee | 686 c195 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, am grateful for the amendment. One of its advantages is that most people in the Ar...
Lord Drayson | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to be alive to the nuances of such language. I am focused on this ...
Lord Garden | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, We, too, welcome the amendment. The Minister wrote to me on 23 October to explain how he h...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c194 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, these necessary amendments extend the scope of Clause 36 and the offence of inaccurate cer...
Lord Drayson | 686 c199-200 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I accept the noble Lord’s point. In the Martin case there were other factors. Besides his ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c200 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment does not confine itself to civilians. It refers, as does the current Army Ac...
Lord Drayson | 686 c199 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is an important matter, so I will speak to it in some detail. Amendment No. 31 seeks ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c199 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, will the Minister accept that cases are being tried in this country in which witnesses are...
Lord Drayson | 686 c195 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 16, line 14, at end insert ““; or
(d) any equipment of a description ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c195-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 30:
Page 18, line 34, at end insert-
““(1A) A person shall not be charged with ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c186 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister most sincerely for the way in which he has sought to r...
Lord Garden | 686 c184 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have not yet spoken to my amendment about life imprisonment. It is in a separate group.
Lord Drayson | 686 c185-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked two questions about ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c183-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to disagree. Although it is right that we should confine ourselves so far as we can ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c184 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have sought in Clause 8 to modernise and limit the offence of desertion. The first chan...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c183 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I follow my noble friend Lord Garden in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on his u...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c183 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, what is really worrying me is that there is a convention on Report that one does not go in...
Lord Archer of Sandwell | 686 c180-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I hope to come to something approaching his question in...
Lord Garden | 686 c182-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I said in Committee, the amendment tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, Am...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c180 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is for clarification. That affects the constitutional position, I think. Does the nob...
Earl Attlee | 686 c167-8 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 7, leave out ““lawful”” and insert ““reasonable””
The noble E...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c168 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have some sympathy with these amendments but perhaps the same position might be met in ...
Earl Attlee | 686 c169 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, but my basic point is that ““implied authority”” must be th...
Lord Drayson | 686 c168-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I explained to the noble Earl in Committee, and as he correctly quoted, we believe that...
Lord Drayson | 686 c171-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments Nos. 4, 4A and 6 change the substance of the offence of obstructing operations....
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c169-71 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 4:
Page 2, line 42, at beginning insert ““without lawful excuse,””
The noble L...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 686 c172 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have not heard an explanation that satisfies me about the distinction between Clauses 3(...
Lord Drayson | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 4, line 39, leave out from ““when”” to end of line 40 and insert ““a ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 12:
Page 4, line 27, leave out ““this section”” and insert““subsection (2)””
...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c174 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking note of the points that I raised in Committee. I am happy ...
Lord Drayson | 686 c174 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 4, line 17, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert-
““(1) A per...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 686 c179 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I oppose Amendment No. 18. We have heard another passionate and lengthy recital, as happen...
Lord Judd | 686 c177-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 18, which is in this group. Ideally, I should have liked to...
Lord Craig of Radley | 686 c175-7 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 5, line 7, leave out subsections (2) to (5) and insert-
““(2) For the...
Baroness Hayman | 686 c175 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I must advise the House that if Amendment No. 14 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments No...
Lord Archer of Sandwell | 686 c179-80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have not previously intervened in your Lordships’ debates on this Bill. My plea in mitig...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c179 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I fully support Amendment No. 14 tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radle...
Lord Drayson | 686 c229 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 56:
Page 77, line 28, leave out ““one or more””
On Question, amendment agreed...
Lord Drayson | 686 c237 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment once again raises issues such as extraordinary rendition, as well as interna...
Lord Astor of Hever | 686 c168 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s amendments. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew said in...
Earl Attlee | 686 c224-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, generally speaking, the other services, on average, have more intelligent servicemen. That...
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