UK Parliament / Open data

Identity Cards Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 13 February 2006, in the House of Commons.
Identity Cards Bill. Programme motion (No 4) on consideration of Lords amendments. Agreed to on question (formal). Consideration of Lords amendments. Lords amendments 19,20 and 23 agreed to. Lords amendments 2,5-15,17,18,24-46,49,52-67,71 and 72 agreed to. Remaining Lords amendments disagreed to, some on division. Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 4,16,22,47,48,50 and 51. Reasons reported and agreed to. Bill and reasons returned to Lords.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

442 c1144-253 

Session

2005-06

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Lords amendments

Procedure

Programme motions

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Identity Cards Bill . Lords amendments
Tuesday, 7 February 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Speaker | 442 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that privilege is involved in Lords amendments Nos. ...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1236-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, perhaps the Minister can intervene and tell me by how much that cost of prevention will be red...

Show all contributions (359)
Martin Linton | 442 c1237 (Link to this contribution) It is nice to be able to return to the subject of the cost and benefit of ID cards. I was fortunate ...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1237 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that, does he?
Martin Linton | 442 c1237 (Link to this contribution) I do. The £30 has been announced. It is to be over 10 years. Even my arithmetical capability is up t...
Mark Todd | 442 c1234 (Link to this contribution) Whatever the figure is. The right hon. Gentleman has not been present for this debate, but he will k...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1234-6 (Link to this contribution) I want to take the Minister back to his opening remarks when he mentioned fraud worth £1.7 billion. ...
Mark Todd | 442 c1237 (Link to this contribution) As someone who certainly read the setting out of the Government’s position—such as it was—there is n...
Martin Linton | 442 c1237-8 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to provide my hon. Friend with the answer. Although the figures are published by the Home...
David Drew | 442 c1240 (Link to this contribution) : In the time assigned to me, I shall make two points. I am delighted to say that having been a crit...
Dawn Butler | 442 c1238 (Link to this contribution) The Bill does not give the police any extra powers. However, does my hon. Friend agree that although...
Martin Linton | 442 c1239-40 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will intervene if I am wrong. At the very least, the subs...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1238-9 (Link to this contribution) May I clarify something in response to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, So...
Martin Linton | 442 c1238 (Link to this contribution) That is my understanding. Only six items of personal information will be included on the register—na...
Sadiq Khan | 442 c1238 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend said that some people were concerned about civil liberties. There are anxieties that ...
Martin Linton | 442 c1238 (Link to this contribution) That is my understanding of the Bill, and I would not support it if I thought that it was a device t...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1239 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was asked by the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) whether he could confirm that...
Martin Linton | 442 c1239 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the organisations that seek verification from the register will be able to do so...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1239 (Link to this contribution) The database will be an active database containing the audit trail and a record of every time the ve...
Martin Linton | 442 c1239 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that reassurance. The total quantified financial benefits are estimated ...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I say in all candour that the answer is yes. Nothing in the provisions would change the way in which...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1150 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify a matter—we need to get this absolutely straight—about clause 15, which wi...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1150-1 (Link to this contribution) I can give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance about that. The measure is one of the building block...
Simon Hughes | 442 c1151 (Link to this contribution) : The Minister clearly gave us a list to indicate how the conditions for moving to compulsion would ...
Jim Cunningham | 442 c1151 (Link to this contribution) : There has been a lot of speculation about charges for ID cards. Can my hon. Friend give us any ide...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I repeat the assurances that we have already given on several occasions. The stand-alone ID card wil...
Michael Mates | 442 c1151 (Link to this contribution) On costs, if identity cards are eventually to become compulsory, what is the argument for making the...
William Cash | 442 c1147 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister enlighten the House about whether he has discussed these clauses and amendments wi...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1147-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those questions, which lead me neatly into the second paragr...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, but I would qualify it in part by saying that that is the initial position and the st...
David Howarth | 442 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Minister says but the problem is that amendment (a) in lieu of amendment No. 21 refe...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Gentleman that his interpretation is not accurate. If I need to discuss that with ...
William Cash | 442 c1148 (Link to this contribution) The Minister refers to building blocks in respect of the inner parts of the Bill. He might recall th...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1148 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not accept the latter point, although George Orwell—also known as Mr. Blair—is one of...
Clare Short | 442 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I was not a member of the Committee, so I ask this question for genuine clarification. What is wrong...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1149 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has clearly attached a new-found importance to an Act of Parliament to make compulsory ...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1149-50 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to go to our next debate, but I shall resist that temptation before you, Mr. Speaker,...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1145-6 (Link to this contribution) On the first point, no. We have made it clear from the beginning that the ultimate aim for the progr...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1146 (Link to this contribution) My intervention might be a little premature, because the Minister has hardly had the chance to get t...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1146-7 (Link to this contribution) The Sunday press always affects Ministers’ blood pressure, but I have never read such an absurd and ...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1147 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister is correct and an ID card will not be required to obtain a driving licence, why does...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1147 (Link to this contribution) No, with respect to the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend’s comments related to a fatuous piece in one ...
Simon Hughes | 442 c1147 (Link to this contribution) My question is germane to both this and the next group of amendments. International obligations for ...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly give the hon. and learned Gentleman that explicit assurance, but it would tempt the ...
David Howarth | 442 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Does the phrase in the Government’s amendment, "““an obligation imposed by an Act of Parliament pas...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I shall return to that point when I get to the second and third paragraphs of my comments.
Jim Cunningham | 442 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I have two questions. First, we are saying at this stage that the scheme will not be compulsory, but...
Speaker | 442 c1145 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 20, Lords amendment No. 21, Government m...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1145 (Link to this contribution) The Government have decided not to seek to reverse Lords amendments Nos. 19 and 20, which removed cl...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1145 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Simon Hughes | 442 c1145 (Link to this contribution) The Minister knows that my colleagues and I oppose compulsory identity cards. Is it now the Governme...
William Cash | 442 c1153-4 (Link to this contribution) : I do not know whether my hon. and learned Friend heard the remarks by Commissioner Frattini on ““T...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1153 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend properly raises all sorts of issues, and I trust that the Government will conde...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1153 (Link to this contribution) But it is a tiny number compared to the 48 million or so who will be required through compulsion, in...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1153 (Link to this contribution) It is my view and that of the official Opposition that it is compulsion by stealth. Only about 20 pe...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1153 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the number of people in the United Kingdom who do not hav...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1152-3 (Link to this contribution) May I draw the House’s attention to the fact that humble pie is also evident in this group of amendm...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I fear not—we only have an hour and a half on this. With those comments I commend to the House the ...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is right in one respect. We are in an evolving situation as far as th...
Keith Vaz | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) : Has my right hon. Friend seen the report published today by the Commission for Racial Equality in ...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I have seen that report. If one considers different biometrics, one sees that there are different is...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct in that the information is not required as part of the current EU passport...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The biometric passport is fully biometric because it has biometrics on it; it just has not got all t...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) A number of countries, including the United States of America, is the answer to my hon. Friend’s que...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I invite the Home Secretary to be quite careful about this. I do not want him to mislead himself or ...
Speaker | 442 c1169 (Link to this contribution) With this we may discuss Lords amendment No. 22 and Government motion to disagree.
Charles Clarke | 442 c1169-70 (Link to this contribution) The House debated the essence of this issue on Report on 18 October. It rejected proposals similar t...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1170 (Link to this contribution) : As I understand it, a fully biometric passport that complies with European Union requirements shou...
Chris Mole | 442 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) This is an important opportunity to look once again at the Government’s proposals and to consider th...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1169 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) That is the simple point that I wanted to make, so I shall give another Member the opportunity to sp...
Anne Main | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that if it becomes compulsory to have an ID card to use the...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I wish that the hon. Lady had listened to my starting point on the issue. I am not defending the ID ...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) In relation to the Home Secretary’s response, if the access to public services were an application f...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. The compulsory element in relation to public services in c...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I confirm that what my hon. Friend has just said is correct. The aspects of the Bill dealing with fr...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) That is an important effect of the amendment and I welcome it, because some of the last people to re...
Tobias Ellwood | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The Government’s figures show that while £1.3 billion is lost due to fraud each year, identity-relat...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman raised that matter during previous stages of the Bill’s consideration. We will de...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1173 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman says, we can guarantee that. Only one question needs to be asked about ...
Frank Cook | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for responding to our conversation last week in written form, which I r...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I need to make it clear that the register will be the record of each citizen’s biometrics and a limi...
Gordon Prentice | 442 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) My passport is coming up for renewal. I will have to offer biometric data and I understand that, but...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I made the point earlier that the non-biometric facts that will be required for the identity card wi...
Speaker | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady knows that interventions must be brief.
Lynne Jones | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. and learned Gentleman concerned not just about the relationship with the state, but abou...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall invite my right hon. and hon. Friends to accept the Government’s word. There will come a tim...
Richard Shepherd | 442 c1155 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend’s reservations about breadth and depth and what the measure amounts to ar...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I have welcomed the concession—I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was in the Cham...
David Winnick | 442 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, I do not resent the hon. and learned Gentleman making points on behalf of the Opposition—...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with the complaint of the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Frank Cook), and I shall end...
Frank Cook | 442 c1154 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that I am partially deaf—I have impaired heari...
Speaker | 442 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the hon. Gentleman’s request. Perhaps the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. G...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I am always grateful for my hon. Friend’s interpretations of what Commissioner Frattini has to say. ...
John Denham | 442 c1160 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman and I start this debate from different points of view: he is against ...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1160 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee. On passports, does he agree that we mus...
John Denham | 442 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier)
John Denham | 442 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the project to be implemented will involve the Passport and Records Agency and other bodies...
David Winnick | 442 c1160 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend and I disagree profoundly in the Home Affairs Committee, so we have a minority ...
David Davis | 442 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and apologise for making a second intervention. The ...
John Denham | 442 c1159 (Link to this contribution) The point of principle is that this House and this country should take steps towards a compulsory na...
John Bercow | 442 c1159 (Link to this contribution) One of the most significant indicators of the Government’s continuing commitment to compulsion is th...
John Denham | 442 c1158-9 (Link to this contribution) No; the process is a good deal less complex than that of the CSA, which faces intrinsic problems suc...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 442 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Surely we know what any Government would say at that point. They would not say, ““This is a question...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) If the Government argue that there is £1.7 billion-worth of identity fraud to be cured through ident...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I was in full weevil mode, but I will of course give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Lord Garnier | 442 c1157 (Link to this contribution) : That is a perfectly good question, but I doubt that the hon. Gentleman will get an answer from thi...
John Denham | 442 c1158 (Link to this contribution) We know that all public or private sector IT projects are not successful. The UK Passport Service an...
David Davis | 442 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Demand for a good service does not always deliver a good service—the right hon. Gentleman has previo...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I think I understand the point that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) was maki...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Even worse. May I assure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak that the point that she has made ...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1156 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Speaker | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I again remind Members of the amendment that we are discussing?
Celia Barlow | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress. Many other Members are eager to speak. I know from my constituency su...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1163-4 (Link to this contribution) : Is my hon. Friend aware that £62.8 million of the cost of identity theft is estimated to be the co...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make some progress. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr....
Celia Barlow | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, I am not. This is why there would be several different forms of biometric identification ...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) The Government had a pilot scheme in Leicester, the closest city to my constituency, in which they t...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I take my hon. Friend’s point. However, I must say that biometric technology has been tried and test...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1162-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. All the investigations carried out by newspapers, for exampl...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) : Why does my hon. Friend say that the biometric technology is there? In fact, there is a great deal...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Member’s point—
Speaker | 442 c1161 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind hon. Members that we are not debating Second Reading; we are debating Lords amendmen...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how low my gears can go, but the hon. Gentleman would not have found me in a Lobby in ...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1162 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to keep to the subject of the amendment, although other issues are involved. I bel...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1161-2 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. Even without that intervention, I should not have tried to highlight t...
John Denham | 442 c1160-1 (Link to this contribution) I am in danger, which I said I would avoid, of being drawn into a Second Reading debate. My hon. Fri...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, so that other hon. Members have the chance to speak. I shall try to stick, as litt...
William Cash | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, that sounds to me like a pretty typical report from ...
William Cash | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) The real reason why the Government are including arrangements relating to biometric procedures is...
Tobias Ellwood | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) The Orwellian scenario to which my hon. Friend referred is not that far away. We established in Comm...
William Cash | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. In fact, the Government are suffering from what could be described as severe political s...
John Bercow | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) We have just heard the verdict of the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) and ...
William Cash | 442 c1167 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, but I thought that the hon. Gentleman was about to refer to the...
Keith Vaz | 442 c1167 (Link to this contribution) Surely the hon. Gentleman knows that under the Hague arrangements, which followed the Tampere discus...
William Cash | 442 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) I am very clear on that point, as I am on all matters relating to that subject. When Mr. Frattini r...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1166 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity and just in case the hon. Gentleman is not clear on the point, may I say tha...
William Cash | 442 c1165 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to confirm what my hon. Friend says. I am afraid that I must point out to the right ho...
John Denham | 442 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can quote to the hon. Gentleman the Select Committee’s conclusion on the very point that w...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) : How can a compulsory identity card—given that biometric information is held centrally and locked i...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) Without such a secure compulsory system, the £1.7 billion figure, which is expected to grow, will be...
Celia Barlow | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman obviously was not present for the Second Reading debate, when all that was explai...
Speaker | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind Members once again of the amendment that is under discussion.
Charles Clarke | 442 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he is accusing his Front Bench of flip-flopping and flip-floppi...
William Cash | 442 c1164 (Link to this contribution) I want to make only a few simple comments. I strongly object to the amendments, not because they ta...
Philip Hollobone | 442 c1165 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that if anybody is guilty of flip-flopping, it is Her Majesty’s Government...
William Cash | 442 c1165 (Link to this contribution) I would not put it in such gentle terms. I would simply say that I am delighted that my Front-Bench ...
Robert Smith | 442 c1174 (Link to this contribution) Is not the logic of the Home Secretary’s argument that, because the cost would shared by fewer peopl...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1175 (Link to this contribution) : Is not there a potential problem with the European convention on human rights if the Home Secretar...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1175 (Link to this contribution) We believe that there is no problem of that type at all. The immigration documents that we are descr...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1173 (Link to this contribution) If the Home Secretary is so confident in his proposal for a central database, why did the Home Offic...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) We had a substantial discussion with the whole industry about our proposals to ensure that we work a...
Pat McFadden | 442 c1174 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State mentioned costs. Has his Department conducted any studies of the cost implica...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1174 (Link to this contribution) The Department has not made a systematic, rigorous assessment of the costs that my hon. Friend descr...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1173 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think that he is correct. The distin...
David Davis | 442 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I shall make this intervention as constructively as I can. The simple truth is that the test is not ...
Martin Linton | 442 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend knows, we have only four minutes left in this debate, and I have not intervened on...
Martin Linton | 442 c1193 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because we are reaching the end of the debate. The key question is whether the ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I have two points to make in response. First, it is not a case of either/or. He will know—the point ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1204 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should be cautious about rubbishing the figures that were placed in the public do...
Philip Hollobone | 442 c1204 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister recognise the public’s concern that the costs of the scheme might be better spent ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I should say at the beginning that the Government support amendment (a), tabled by my right hon. Fri...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that his comments would carry much more weight if No. 10 Downing street ha...
Speaker | 442 c1203 (Link to this contribution) With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 68 to 70, Government motions to disagree thereto and ...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is more easily shocked than me if that shocks him. However, he describes the posi...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman as shocked as me that, contrary to the Home Secretary’s assurances that Irish ...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman begins citing case law, but I shall resist his blandishments. The Government sou...
William Cash | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) It is reminiscent of the Ashbury railway case.
Ben Wallace | 442 c1193 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1193 (Link to this contribution) I am beginning to wish that we had voted against the programme motion, because 90 minutes is clearly...
Baroness Hoey | 442 c1192-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the Labour manifesto, which made it clear that identity cards were to...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Yes. One almost feels that the great expression, ““for the avoidance of doubt””, which featured in o...
William Cash | 442 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1(4)(l) also provides for "““the number of any designated document which is held by him an...
Chris Mole | 442 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the fundamental assumption that underlies the errors in people’...
John Denham | 442 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I am one of those—I am sure that there are many others in this House—who carries out most of his ban...
David Leslie Taylor | 442 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) Is it not an heroic act of faith to suggest that few, if any, weaknesses can be attributed to the li...
John Denham | 442 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not distinguishing between the elements of the Bill that allow access to audit...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I begin by picking up a point that the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) mad...
John McDonnell | 442 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) made a comparison with internet...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman cannot get away from the basis on which access is to be administered. It cl...
John Denham | 442 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make a little progress. Furthermore, no significant danger has been introduced by ...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, to which I cannot add. Given the constraints of time, I...
John McDonnell | 442 c1188 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is going through the arguments in a cogent way that will convince many people. ...
John Denham | 442 c1188 (Link to this contribution) That is right, with the exception that is always there in law of the detection and prevention of cri...
Frank Cook | 442 c1188 (Link to this contribution) : Is it not true to say that these checks can be done only with the cardholder’s prior consent?
John Denham | 442 c1187-8 (Link to this contribution) Let me say in passing that two of the suggestions made by Opposition Members about what would on the...
David Davis | 442 c1187 (Link to this contribution) When the right hon. Gentleman raised that point, I was dealing with amusing heckling. I shall take u...
John Denham | 442 c1187 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not made the case why different bits of data should not be brought together.
Ben Wallace | 442 c1187 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the register will contain extra detail that is not currentl...
John Denham | 442 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend knows, manifestos are funny things. I thought that I had read the education sectio...
William Cash | 442 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Baroness Featherstone | 442 c1184 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Davis | 442 c1184 (Link to this contribution) There are many with the name David Davis. That would be a major disruption for the entire country of...
Baroness Featherstone | 442 c1185 (Link to this contribution) : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the disproportionate basis on which people from different...
David Davis | 442 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) I have not finished answering this question. I will give way to the hon. Lady in a moment. The right...
Lord Blunkett | 442 c1184 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the whole purpose of having a clean identity base is to e...
David Davis | 442 c1184 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes a point that he adheres to honestly and straightforwardly, but on whi...
David Davis | 442 c1185 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware that such a race impact assessment has been conducted. The hon. Lady is right that th...
John Bercow | 442 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a question of not only numbers signed up, but money spent...
David Davis | 442 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Government want us to face an argument of inevitability. They w...
Ed Miliband | 442 c1181 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Davis | 442 c1181 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman likes to make his name on economics. I will give way to him after this section. ...
Martin Linton | 442 c1181 (Link to this contribution) Since there are only six pieces of personal information on the national identity register—name, sex,...
David Davis | 442 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) The primary concern is about a piece of data giving access to other databases—for example, driving l...
Ed Miliband | 442 c1181 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is much more experienced than I in the House. He is basing his case on an a...
David Davis | 442 c1181 (Link to this contribution) This is the public domain. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman was doing when he was at the Treasu...
David Davis | 442 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I do not take responsibility for the hon. Gentleman not being able to understand so...
Ed Balls | 442 c1183 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the right hon. Gentleman’s speech and he has made a series of arguments...
David Davis | 442 c1182-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a decent point in truth. A large database should be introduced on an evolut...
Adrian Bailey | 442 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the right hon. Gentleman’s argument and he makes the point about the allege...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1178 (Link to this contribution) I know that people are well educated in Buckingham, and they will follow his contributions with part...
Robert N Wareing | 442 c1178 (Link to this contribution) To pursue the question asked by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) about access by foreig...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1178 (Link to this contribution) As I said a moment ago, no—perhaps my hon. Friend did not hear that answer. That is not the way in w...
David Davis | 442 c1178-9 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by saying that I am sorry that the Prime Minister cannot be here today? I doubt that his...
John Denham | 442 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has spoken about bringing together different databases and his concerns abo...
Chris Mole | 442 c1180 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Davis | 442 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I shall use the examples that I was discussing. When Pam Warren, the rail safety campaigner, was a t...
David Davis | 442 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s whipped speech. I have had fun before with th...
David Davis | 442 c1180-1 (Link to this contribution) Of course such a person would be fined if he were caught, but one of the problems with the proposal ...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1177 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not saying that. The Bill applies to everyone who is legally resident in this country, incl...
Philip Hollobone | 442 c1177 (Link to this contribution) : What rights would other countries have to access the UK identity cards register if we hold informa...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1177 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend accepts that an affirmative order is needed if any document is to be d...
Baroness Hoey | 442 c1177 (Link to this contribution) If identity cards are introduced, as has been suggested, will my right hon. Friend confirm that Iris...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Having participated in many such debates with the hon. Gentleman I know how much he enjoys talking i...
John Bercow | 442 c1178 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s generosity. As he will know, of 45 clauses in the origi...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1177 (Link to this contribution) I was about to stop giving way, but I shall make an exception for the hon. Member for Buckingham (Jo...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1175 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way?
Charles Clarke | 442 c1175 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to make more progress and will give way in a moment, as I said. We do intend to designat...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1176 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to comment on what the right hon. Gentleman may or may not have been told by Minister...
David Davis | 442 c1176 (Link to this contribution) On this specific issue, I have heard from senior members of the Irish Government that if we introduc...
David Winnick | 442 c1176-7 (Link to this contribution) There is bound to be concern among opponents of ID cards that if someone receives a passport or reap...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1175-6 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second, as I said. I need to make it clear that there will be no possibility o...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1176 (Link to this contribution) The proposals relate to UK citizens. We are debating fully with the Irish Government and my colleagu...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1204 (Link to this contribution) It is entirely legitimate for the Government to point out what we believe were flaws in the LSE repo...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) I am answering the hon. and learned Gentleman’s point, so perhaps he could give me a moment to do so...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1205 (Link to this contribution) Can we get a straight admission from the Minister that the allegation in his letter, that the LSE al...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress. My two key points are, first, that the costs of the scheme are both r...
David Drew | 442 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the figure has been made public, but does my hon. Friend accept that some of us st...
Mark Todd | 442 c1208 (Link to this contribution) May I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the need for greater transparency, which might provide reas...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I take on board my hon. Friend’s general point. I hope that, after this evening’s vote, the discussi...
Brooks Newmark | 442 c1207 (Link to this contribution) I am not satisfied that the Minister has answered the question asked by the hon. Member for Hampstea...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1207 (Link to this contribution) I do share that confidence. Let me develop the point that I made in response to my hon. Friend the M...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1207 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has experience of such matters. Governments of bo...
Glenda Jackson | 442 c1206 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend set out how the Government are approaching the commissioning of the enormous con...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1206 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to note that the project is a major undertaking and will require significant...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1206 (Link to this contribution) I note my hon. Friend’s point about the LSE figures. On the Government’s figures—the main thrust of ...
Mark Todd | 442 c1206 (Link to this contribution) It may help my hon. Friend to learn that when I questioned IT professionals who are hoping to take p...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I will be honest with my hon. Friend. Some of these issues have not been decided yet. They will be d...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I now want to make progress. We have said that the costs should not be fully divulged as that will ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1209 (Link to this contribution) I am making the point that that figure relates to the budget for issuing biometric passports and ide...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1209 (Link to this contribution) The current passport application support system is a 10-year private finance initiative and, as my h...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1209 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend asks a fair question. The £584 million relates to the cost in its totality of issuing...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1209-10 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend saying that if it is not a PFI scheme, which would have an annual running cost, th...
Speaker | 442 c1208 (Link to this contribution) Order. When the Minister turns to speak to his hon. Friend, he is not only turning his back on the o...
Stewart Hosie | 442 c1209 (Link to this contribution) The figure of £200 million represents the non-passport element of the scheme, but is the Minister co...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1208-9 (Link to this contribution) I certainly will, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I apologise for any inconvenience. I want to stress to th...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1224-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that we have wandered much further than this in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I take...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1226 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right. I am trying desperately to conclude my remarks....
Lord Garnier | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that we could not test the truth of the Secretary of State’s decision and whether it ...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the right hon. Gentleman’s expression, "““securing the best value from the use of publi...
Frank Dobson | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman was a lawyer, but we are not talking about commercial confidentiality...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) That would require us to know that the information is there and is being withheld, which is not alwa...
Frank Dobson | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that there would be no comeback for the Secretary of State if he held back i...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I accept that; indeed, I have just made that point, more or less. However, if the Government are min...
David Drew | 442 c1225 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes just the point that I wanted to make. I am greatly attracted by what my rig...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1226-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Government’s agreement with amendment (a). However, my problem is that large amounts o...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1223-4 (Link to this contribution) That must have been a good 30 seconds out of the first 36 minutes. It was his own hon. Friend, the h...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1223 (Link to this contribution) I began by addressing both amendments. I said at the beginning that the amendment of my right hon. F...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1224 (Link to this contribution) We voted against it. I am slightly thrown, as I cannot remember any stage at which our position has ...
William Cash | 442 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks this afternoon with great interest. Will he remind m...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1222 (Link to this contribution) Is not the problem that over the past year or so, and during debates in this place and the other pla...
Frank Dobson | 442 c1222 (Link to this contribution) The wording is: "““If . . . it would be prejudicial to securing the best value from the use of publ...
John Bercow | 442 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to colleagues for breaching the convention that one does not intervene a few minutes aft...
Speaker | 442 c1224 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are wandering a little far from the amendment under discussion.
Lynne Jones | 442 c1227-8 (Link to this contribution) It is probably easier for the Government to estimate the cost of providing buildings than it is for ...
John Bercow | 442 c1227 (Link to this contribution) To what extent, if at all, does the hon. Lady think that the Government have factored into their cal...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1228-9 (Link to this contribution) I am prepared to accept the Government’s assurances that the driving licence will not be a designate...
William Cash | 442 c1228 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Lady, in the course of her diligent analysis, considered the extremely difficult proble...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1229-30 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it from answers given to me previously by the Minister, the cards will contain radio...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1229 (Link to this contribution) It is not right to say that chips on the cards will enable people to be followed wherever they go; t...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1231 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that the set-up costs would be absorbed in the £584 million; they are additional. The ...
Sammy Wilson | 442 c1230-1 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we get this right for two reasons that the Minister gave earlier—first, because...
Mark Todd | 442 c1231-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to focus on the amendments. I have quite a lot of sympathy for the Lords amendment, alth...
Sammy Wilson | 442 c1231 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak asked how the costs of the scheme would be paid. One of th...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1212 (Link to this contribution) I will now make some more progress. In order to provide even further reassurance, we commissioned K...
Neil Gerrard | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has not addressed many of his remarks to the Lords amendments and the reasons for pre...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1213 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has examined the information that the Home Office has put out assiduously. KPMG exami...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1213 (Link to this contribution) KPMG actually said that the methodology for determining those costs was accurate, but did not put a ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I make it clear to my hon. Friend that KPMG had access to the scheme’s full business case and that i...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Is it not true that the KPMG report examined cost centres that amounted to only 60 per cent. of the ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) I will make progress now, but I hope to give way before I end my remarks. The Home Office benefits ...
John McDonnell | 442 c1210 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend inform the House what calculation was made about the income from fines in relatio...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1210 (Link to this contribution) The answer is that no such decisions have been made at this point. As I was saying, the costs do no...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1210-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall now make some progress. Public services will use the scheme if there is a net benefit to th...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) We have been in a different phase of the scheme. The debate has been happening in the House and in a...
Mark Todd | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being very generous. He has referred to the potential savings, but one of the puzz...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) That is a good point. Of course, we keep the benefits case under review and it changes as the scheme...
Martin Linton | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned the benefits review. The figure of £1.1 billion is for the expected benefit...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1211 (Link to this contribution) I will give way but I want to wrap up my remarks pretty soon.
Lord Garnier | 442 c1217 (Link to this contribution) It merely confirms that a Government who do not know what they are doing ask a distinguished firm of...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1218 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman’s colleagues have repeated in the media and in the House the original...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1218 (Link to this contribution) The debate is becoming a little sterile and circular. Where the basis of a belief is confounded, it ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1217 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for accepting my intervention. To be clear abou...
Frank Dobson | 442 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to amendment (a), which I tabled in lieu of Lords amendments Nos. 1, 68, 69 and 70. ...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1218-20 (Link to this contribution) If I have not reset the Minister’s mind, I sincerely hope that the hon. Lady has done so, but I am n...
Lynne Jones | 442 c1218 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the LSE revised its costs downwards because of the durability of the card, bu...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1214 (Link to this contribution) There is a growing air of scepticism in the Chamber, and the longer the Minister spoke, the more the...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1214 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman, whose copy I used to save from libel writs when he was writing for...
Martin Linton | 442 c1214 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman might remember that when he was night lawyer on The Guardian and I wa...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1214 (Link to this contribution) I was paid to prevent libels, not to read the newspaper—[Laughter.]
Speaker | 442 c1214 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps we can get back to the Lords amendment under discussion.
Brooks Newmark | 442 c1216 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones), ...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1214-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is keen for us to be assured that we will be able to trust entirely the figures that hi...
Mark Todd | 442 c1216-7 (Link to this contribution) May I reiterate the point that there were false expectations of the KPMG report? To be frank, there ...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1216 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who comes to the matter with some years’ experience in the financial services indust...
Martin Linton | 442 c1193 (Link to this contribution) People listening to this debate might be in danger of getting a little confused, because the first 9...
Chris Mole | 442 c1180 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear what the fine would be, as prescribed in the schedule, if a...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to debate the detail of the LSE report. If I need to correct anything, I shall write...
Frank Dobson | 442 c1220-2 (Link to this contribution) I should like to try to make progress. The Government estimate that the scheme will cost £6 billion...
David Winnick | 442 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I share my hon. Friend’s complete opposition to ID cards, but should not those of us on the Labour B...
Lembit Opik | 442 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I know that the right hon. Gentleman wants to make progress, but will he answer a question? I am vex...
John Denham | 442 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to restrict myself to the particular topics under discussion, although the temptat...
Peter Bone | 442 c1162 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that if 80 per cent. of the population had already been forced to have an I...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the exceptionally deft and dexterous manner in which the Minister for Immigration, ...
John Denham | 442 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. To listen to some speakers, one would think t...
Ben Wallace | 442 c1176 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) made the point about residence permits and human right...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1205-6 (Link to this contribution) It is precisely because we do not want people running off and making a bomb at the expense of the ta...
Lord Deben | 442 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not against identity cards in principle, so I ask this question in kindness, rather than anythi...
Alistair Carmichael | 442 c1222-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson), whose s...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1217 (Link to this contribution) The Minister wishes to intervene. I shall accept his intervention.
Tony McNulty | 442 c1151 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an entirely fair point that we will have to consider seriously as we move t...
Tony McNulty | 442 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) First, we are not making the cards themselves compulsory—it is the registration that will be compuls...
John Redwood | 442 c1153 (Link to this contribution) Is not the problem with the proposed system that the Government cannot control the current passport ...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1173 (Link to this contribution) First and foremost, I am very keen not to have the support of the hon. Gentleman in this vote—God kn...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
John Denham | 442 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall begin by saying something that will comfort the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1204 (Link to this contribution) May I draw Members’ attention to the Minister’s letter of 7 February, which was sent only to Labour ...
Charles Clarke | 442 c1174-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that I addressed that argument earlier. We have set out from the beginning our intention to ...
Andy Burnham | 442 c1212 (Link to this contribution) As I said a moment ago, it is a decision for those Departments how and when they engage with the cre...
Lord Garnier | 442 c1217-8 (Link to this contribution) Let me help the Minister. The claim that he reiterates for the fourth or fifth time was first made i...

Subjects

Databases
Biometrics
Applications
Costs
Delegated legislation
Fraud
Enforcement
Immigration controls
Identity cards
Documents
Ministerial powers
Procurement
National identity register
Proof of identity
Passports
Registration
Office of the Identity Commissioner
Driving licences

Legislation

Identity Cards Bill 2005-06

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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