UK Parliament / Open data

Identity Cards Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 18 October 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Charles Clarke. The answering member was Lord Garnier.
Identity Cards Bill. Debate on motion to re-commit Bill to a Select Committee negatived on division (243 to 326). Report stage and third reading debate. Agreed to on division (309 to 284). Passed.

About these Parliamentary proceedings

Reference

437 c717-813, (corrigendum) 438 c150;437 c717-813 

Session

2005-06

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Third reading and Report stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Identity Cards Bill. As amended in Standing Committee D
Thursday, 21 July 2005
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Tobias Ellwood | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes an important point, but does he not agree that we would have a much more transpar...
Andy Burnham | 437 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely the basis on which the scheme has been developed—that the costs of running the sch...

Show all contributions (264)
Andy Burnham | 437 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) Over the past hour or so, the debate has arrived at the point of concern for most people in the coun...
Tim Farron | 437 c788 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister therefore saying that the entire cost of ID cards will be borne by citizens paying u...
Andrew Love | 437 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) I concur. I served on the Public Accounts Committee for some time and we considered many such report...
Lynne Jones | 437 c787 (Link to this contribution) I share the concerns about the cost of identity cards and the charges that will ultimately be levied...
Andrew Love | 437 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak in the debate but as there is some time I should like to make a couple of ...
Mark Todd | 437 c786 (Link to this contribution) One of my concerns is that the Government have not shared their business case with us even in edited...
Tobias Ellwood | 437 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) This debate is not simply about ID cards: it is about the relationship between the citizen and the s...
Andrew Love | 437 c761 (Link to this contribution) I am following my hon. and learned Friend’s argument closely. Does he agree that the most insidious ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c761 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, as I was going to become a little more serious an...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c761 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to answer that question. The answer is yes, I did. Neither was it the only part of the ...
Martin Salter | 437 c761 (Link to this contribution) I always enjoy hearing my hon. and learned Friend’s oratory, but to develop his theme of explaining ...
Martin Linton | 437 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a lot of rhetoric tonight and we can congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waltha...
Richard Shepherd | 437 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) The House owes a debt of gratitude to the mover of amendment No. 5. The whole issue is about liberty...
Martin Linton | 437 c763 (Link to this contribution) The point is not whether we have separate cards, but whether we have the register, which will contai...
Adam Afriyie | 437 c763 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that it will be compulsory to carry the ID card. If an ID card is based on biometrics...
Martin Linton | 437 c763 (Link to this contribution) As I have come to the crucial point, many people want me to give way. However, there are many others...
Martin Linton | 437 c764 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way again, because others want to get into the debate. Opponents of the Bill should...
Lord Garnier | 437 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is misleading himself, perhaps because he has not got as far as page 40 of the Bi...
Martin Linton | 437 c764 (Link to this contribution) It is actually 56, but it boils down to identity information.
Tony McNulty | 437 c765 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady shakes her head, but she is wrong to do so. I gave the Chair of the Select Committee t...
Tony McNulty | 437 c765 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham), who is Chairman of the Home Af...
Tony McNulty | 437 c765 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept what my hon. Friend says about static as opposed to ever changing databases. She ...
Lynne Jones | 437 c765 (Link to this contribution) Given what happened with the Child Support Agency or the tax credit systems, have not the Government...
Tony McNulty | 437 c766 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway does not mention the three other paragraphs of clau...
Speaker | 437 c770 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 19, in page 31, line 26 [Clause 37], leave ...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) This simple amendment provides that an identity card issued to an individual must be free of charge....
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) Given what he has just said, will the Minister tell me what the following passage means? Clause 5(5)...
David Drew | 437 c772 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I am very keen to know what the amendment woul...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) As always, I am grateful to my fellow Nottinghamshire Member of Parliament for his observations. If ...
Nick Palmer | 437 c771 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman is sliding back and forth between the issues of cost and charge. The amendment ...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c772 (Link to this contribution) As usual, the hon. Gentleman makes a useful and helpful intervention. Perhaps the Minister would be ...
Mark Oaten | 437 c772 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is talking about future, projected costs, but I wonder how much the Government ha...
Mark Todd | 437 c774 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that a cultural barrier lies in front of the scheme, to which he has...
Speaker | 437 c774 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman responds to that intervention, I remind him and the House tha...
Lord Garnier | 437 c774 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman may be further concerned to hear that, before we broke for the recess in Ju...
John Denham | 437 c774 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. Although the Select Committee supported the ID card scheme, one of its...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c772 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will not surprised if I say that I have done no such calculation. ...
John Denham | 437 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I have not spoken in the debates so far today, and this seems the most appropriate debate in which t...
Speaker | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is off-beam again. The right hon. Gentleman must address his remarks to the amendments b...
Lynne Jones | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government should not go ahead with procuring the system wi...
John Denham | 437 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for your advice and tolerance up to this point. However, t...
John Denham | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) I shall not answer the question, Mr. Deputy Speaker, although I was tempted to do so.
John Denham | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my hon. Friend, but if he could help me to remain in order I should be grateful....
John Denham | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) I have much sympathy for what my hon. Friend says. It seems to me that we are locking commercial con...
Andrew Love | 437 c775 (Link to this contribution) The Government have commissioned a study by KPMG, which looks at the risks to the system and, I unde...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) : It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham). He may have...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) That certainly appears to be the case. As with everything else to do with this cursed Bill, we do no...
Alex Salmond | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) After making a sedentary intervention, the Minister has disappeared from the Treasury Bench. He shou...
David Hamilton | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) As someone who once had the sheriff’s officers at his door, I can well remember that time. Furthermo...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) The Minister should have no need of advice as I have already raised the point with him in Committee....
Alex Salmond | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is now getting advice.
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it is soft, but it is certainly raw—
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c778 (Link to this contribution) I do not doubt for a second that hon. Members on both sides of the House are worried about costs. I ...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) : I would not want the hon. Gentleman to think that Labour Members are not concerned about costs, es...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c777 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. I would have expected him to take that position ...
John McDonnell | 437 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to amendment No. 19, and with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall press it to...
Lynne Jones | 437 c779 (Link to this contribution) I share my hon. Friend’s concern. Is he aware that the increase to the charge for a passport between...
John McDonnell | 437 c780 (Link to this contribution) If the Government maintain that the costs of the scheme must be covered by charges, the general publ...
Andrew Love | 437 c779 (Link to this contribution) According to the press release that was released yesterday to indicate that the charge of a card to ...
John McDonnell | 437 c779 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend’s point, which was perfectly made, reinforces our worry about what the Government wil...
David Drew | 437 c780 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether my hon. Friend read the answer that I received last week to a parliamentary qu...
John McDonnell | 437 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) That is one option. However, we are all aware of the stringency of the Treasury’s activities across ...
John McDonnell | 437 c780 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. At the end of the day, they probably did not impose such a heavy charge on our constituents....
John McDonnell | 437 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) The KPMG report is concerned that the project is an enormous leap in the dark. There are worries abo...
Mark Todd | 437 c780 (Link to this contribution) I shall focus on the KPMG report, which has not been fully disclosed but makes reference to a weakne...
Bill Etherington | 437 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) on his honesty. He clearly said that he h...
Speaker | 437 c783 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be the first to recognise that he is straying well awa...
Alex Salmond | 437 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) Someone with substantial parliamentary experience knows that the best way to ensure that such things...
John Denham | 437 c782 (Link to this contribution) The vast majority of people who oppose the Bill would do so whether or not there were issues of cost...
Alex Salmond | 437 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) presses his amendment to a vote, I shal...
John McDonnell | 437 c781 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has spotted an incentive in the Bill for people to go into hiding and to refuse to pa...
Mark Todd | 437 c781 (Link to this contribution) If I understand the Bill correctly there is an assumption that take-up will not be 100 per cent., so...
Tim Farron | 437 c760 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution and I will check the history later with my hon. Frie...
Tim Farron | 437 c760 (Link to this contribution) My sincere apologies, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) is right...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c760-1 (Link to this contribution) I should like to spend a short time discussing the important amendment No. 5, which deals with the c...
Tim Farron | 437 c758 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point, which highlights one of the many o...
Adam Afriyie | 437 c758 (Link to this contribution) For the many elderly and disabled people on means-tested benefits, registering for the ID card will ...
Tim Farron | 437 c758-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I feel in no way comfortable with the ide...
David Winnick | 437 c759 (Link to this contribution) I would not disagree with the hon. Gentleman, but I want to comment on his point about heroes. Does ...
Tim Farron | 437 c757-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her observation, but she might want to consider that 70 is a very...
Adam Afriyie | 437 c756 (Link to this contribution) I visited South Africa recently. I believe that the riots and rebellions there were sparked off part...
Lord Garnier | 437 c756 (Link to this contribution) I quite agree. The pass system in apartheid South Africa was offensive to all civilised people. It d...
Lord Deben | 437 c755 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend pointed out that people would have to travel long distances. I do not kno...
Andrew Love | 437 c757 (Link to this contribution) What is the mood of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition toward amendment No. 5?
Lord Garnier | 437 c757 (Link to this contribution) We shall support it. I hope that others will deal with this Bill as vigorously as the hon. Member f...
Robert Smith | 437 c756 (Link to this contribution) : Given the national database, will we not be walking identity cards once the system becomes compuls...
Lord Garnier | 437 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a couple of good points, directly and by implication. The identity card...
Tim Farron | 437 c757 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief. The Government have sought to curtail this debate and I do not want to aid or abet ...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 437 c757 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the Government have given a commitment to establishing a num...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c751 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We all know that information about us is stored on dat...
Lord Deben | 437 c751 (Link to this contribution) : I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has noticed that, in this discussion, we are changing fundamen...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c751 (Link to this contribution) That is a very important point. I referred to it earlier when I mentioned the right to leave and re-...
Lord Garnier | 437 c752-4 (Link to this contribution) I see that the Wolfgang element has emerged. I assure the hon. Gentleman that no Government run by m...
David Howarth | 437 c754 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that one of the most obnoxious aspects of the Bill is th...
Lord Garnier | 437 c754-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might have noticed the rubber stamp on the front of the Bill—it may not be on the...
Lord Garnier | 437 c752 (Link to this contribution) : The position is even more extraordinary than that. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a free tr...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c752 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for making that point. The issue of travel to and from Irelan...
Lord Garnier | 437 c752 (Link to this contribution) : I am grateful to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) for the careful way in which he ope...
Tim Farron | 437 c752 (Link to this contribution) Will the Conservatives support it?
Neil Gerrard | 437 c749 (Link to this contribution) There is a question of choice involved: do we want to travel internationally? It might well be that,...
Kali Mountford | 437 c749 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend explain how he envisages a biometric passport working without the support of a r...
Lynne Jones | 437 c751 (Link to this contribution) : The passport authority already has a database containing all the information submitted when we app...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c750 (Link to this contribution) The scheme will get less and less popular as people learn more about it. That is already happening, ...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c750 (Link to this contribution) We must be careful not to exaggerate what can be done through biometric checks at airports or anywhe...
Robert Smith | 437 c750 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government’s need to use this element of compulsion to get th...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c749-50 (Link to this contribution) That question ought to be put to just about every other country in the world that is introducing bio...
Tobias Ellwood | 437 c750 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, to ensure that a terrorist did not get on to an aeroplane, if ...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c731 (Link to this contribution) The old aphorism relating to any form of computer or intelligence work is, ““Rubbish in, rubbish out...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c732 (Link to this contribution) If I may leave terrorism for a moment and go on to the second claim made by the Government, concerni...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c732 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman as usual puts his finger on it. I hope that my earlier quote from Int...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c732-3 (Link to this contribution) Clauses 1 and 2 contain the meat of the Bill, as was reflected in Committee by the exceptionally sub...
Speaker | 437 c734 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions should be brief, as this debate is very much time limited.
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 437 c734 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes exactly the right point about how widely drawn are the powers of the state, as ...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c733 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises an important point, and it is clear that there will be different modes of oper...
Lembit Opik | 437 c733 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall that I questioned the Prime Minister about this matter? Although the Labo...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c733-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right, and his intervention allows me to explain why the con...
Viscount Hailsham | 437 c733 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a very persuasive speech. Is not his argument supported by the Select C...
Lord Deben | 437 c736 (Link to this contribution) Well, clause 1(4) may outline the purposes of the Bill, but it is on such a broad canvas that it is ...
Viscount Hailsham | 437 c736 (Link to this contribution) My question for my right hon. Friend is in part a response to the hon. Member for City of Durham (Dr...
Lord Deben | 437 c734-6 (Link to this contribution) I am one of those in the House who believes in identity cards. My problem with the Bill is that the ...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 437 c736 (Link to this contribution) Why does the right hon. Gentleman have a problem with clause 1(4), which clearly outlines the purpos...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c734 (Link to this contribution) There is very little that I need add to my hon. Friend’s intervention, other than to say that he mak...
Lord Deben | 437 c737 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is, of course, absolutely right, but my difficulty in increasing the numb...
Lord Garnier | 437 c736-7 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is quite right. Will my right hon. Friend also ask the Minister to ...
Lord Garnier | 437 c736 (Link to this contribution) When my right hon. Friend asks the Minister to place that document in the Library, will he also ask ...
Lord Deben | 437 c736 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend has underlined the point that my metaphor of a great painting is fa...
Peter Robinson | 437 c730 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. Is it not true that the more the security f...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c730 (Link to this contribution) Possibly, but such terrorists need not necessarily have false identities. Having a proper, pukka, le...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c729-30 (Link to this contribution) I would not wish to stretch the House in any way, shape or form, and nor would I wish to stretch my ...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c730-1 (Link to this contribution) Those questions certainly need to be answered, but I would suggest a prior question: will the card w...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c730 (Link to this contribution) As usual, I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for his intervention. He is quite right ...
Viscount Hailsham | 437 c730 (Link to this contribution) There may be a number of circumstances in which possession of an identification card helps to preven...
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 437 c731 (Link to this contribution) Pursuing that point, is not the opposite likely to be the case? Is not the process of registration o...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c731 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly confirm that the human rights elements of what might be called the Big Brother aspec...
Mark Fisher | 437 c731 (Link to this contribution) As others have said, the hon. Gentleman is being extraordinarily generous in giving way. He is estab...
Andy Burnham | 437 c741-2 (Link to this contribution) The argument is clear. The main strength of the biometric system is that individuals can only regist...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c741 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge what the head of the Security Service said, but where is the proof? Where is the evide...
Andy Burnham | 437 c742 (Link to this contribution) All afternoon we have heard from Liberal Democrat conspiracy theorists who seem to think that this i...
Lembit Opik | 437 c742 (Link to this contribution) The Minister and the Government have failed to answer a fundamental question. Can they guarantee tha...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 437 c741 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that it was not the Government’s intention to create a vast body of information an...
Andy Burnham | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) The European Union has already agreed to move in the direction of requiring the widespread use of bi...
Andy Burnham | 437 c741 (Link to this contribution) I will press on, because I do not have much time. Terrorism was raised by many Opposition Members. ...
Andy Burnham | 437 c741 (Link to this contribution) We do not have time to consider Government amendment No. 1, but I refer my hon. and learned Friend t...
Andy Burnham | 437 c742 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, but as the hon. Gentleman as raised the issue on many occasions I shall give hi...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c749 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. The Bill clearly provides that, to get a designated document, a person ...
Simon Hughes | 437 c748 (Link to this contribution) May I check that the hon. Gentleman and I share the same interpretation? The announcement yesterday ...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c748 (Link to this contribution) Some people might be prepared to be involved in trying out an ID card but let them make that choice ...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c747-8 (Link to this contribution) The amendment would make it possible to be issued with a designated document without having to go on...
Speaker | 437 c747 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 39, in page 5, line 17, at...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c747 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 5, in page 4, line 42, leave out ‘must’ and insert
Andy Burnham | 437 c742 (Link to this contribution) Government amendment No. 1 clarifies the definition of an identity card by means of a minor amendmen...
Mark Fisher | 437 c742 (Link to this contribution) As we will not be able to debate Government amendment No. 1, will my hon. Friend explain the differe...
Simon Hughes | 437 c749 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman also agree that many of us would be willing to accept an international agree...
Lord Deben | 437 c737 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s sensible proposition. The Minister has received a ...
Lembit Opik | 437 c737 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman add a further request to the long list of questions about the intentio...
Tobias Ellwood | 437 c738 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be briefer than I was in my last intervention. I thank you for allowing me some latit...
Andy Burnham | 437 c737-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to those Opposition Members who still wish to speak, but this section of debate will con...
Viscount Hailsham | 437 c738 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is dealing with what is deemed to be in the public interest. Will he tell the House whi...
Andy Burnham | 437 c738 (Link to this contribution) I most certainly do. When the hon. Gentleman travels on an aeroplane, I think he will find that he h...
Andy Burnham | 437 c738 (Link to this contribution) I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is assiduous in these matters and always reads the ...
Mark Fisher | 437 c738 (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to the fact that people should be able to prove who they are, and in answer to...
Andy Burnham | 437 c739 (Link to this contribution) That is not just for passports. Catching an internal flight in the UK requires a form of identificat...
Richard Shepherd | 437 c739 (Link to this contribution) I should be grateful if the Minister returned to the question asked by my right hon. and learned Fri...
Andy Burnham | 437 c739 (Link to this contribution) I want to make progress to answer some of the points that Members have raised during the debate. Le...
Andy Burnham | 437 c739 (Link to this contribution) Across the public sector, bodies are performing identity checks day in, day out, be they the local c...
Andy Burnham | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises an important point. We had to take a decision on the extent to which biometric...
Lynne Jones | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend explain how the Government’s proposals, which involve storing 10 fingerprints, f...
Andy Burnham | 437 c739-40 (Link to this contribution) I want to finish answering the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak. ...
Stewart Hosie | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) The German Federal Parliament’s Office of Technology Assessment warned that introducing biometrics o...
Stewart Hosie | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) The Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, of all bodies, has put together information...
Andy Burnham | 437 c740 (Link to this contribution) We will proceed to a full technology trial if the Bill receives Royal Assent. In the interim, I refe...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right: there are loopholes all over the place. The amendments seek to define the p...
Speaker | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman may not. An intervention should be very much more concise.
Lindsay Hoyle | 437 c729 (Link to this contribution) I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman’s military background and for the great knowledge that h...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c729 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention and he is absolutely right: we need to a...
Lord Deben | 437 c729 (Link to this contribution) Do we not need to know from the Government precisely how helpful identity cards and the register wou...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c728-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right. The Spanish model is entirely different from the one proposed by the Governm...
Lynne Jones | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood). Is not the point that the Spanish ...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c727 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair point. If that is the case, however, first, let us confirm that the biometrics and te...
Adrian Bailey | 437 c727 (Link to this contribution) I cannot recall the Home Secretary’s exact words in July, but I do recall a discussion about the use...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c727-8 (Link to this contribution) That is not the point that the Government are making. The bombers in Spain were identified as a resu...
Andy Burnham | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Spanish identity card played no role in the detection of t...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) It certainly played no role in preventing the bombings, although it helped when linked with telephon...
Andy Burnham | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) The bombers in Spain were still alive, and the police and security services were able to locate them...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c725-6 (Link to this contribution) We have been here so many times previously, and I am sure that the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member ...
Lembit Opik | 437 c726-7 (Link to this contribution) In relation to Northern Ireland, I agree that there have been attempts at introducing one form of id...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c727 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, and I will answer the hon. Gentleman by saying that it was my e...
Adrian Bailey | 437 c727 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and I accept that identity cards would not p...
David Winnick | 437 c718 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 437 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I would be in order if I accepted an intervention, as I am giving a statement of the ...
Speaker | 437 c724-5 (Link to this contribution) With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 9, in page 1, line 16, le...
Tony McNulty | 437 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) I am not permitted to do so, for the reasons already given by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c724 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 1, line 10, after ‘others’, insert ‘who reasonably require pr...
Speaker | 437 c717 (Link to this contribution) Order. There are far too many private conversations in the Chamber, which is unfair to the House.
David Heath | 437 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Speaker. The Home Affairs Committee reported on 20 July 2004—more than a year be...
David Drew | 437 c792 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Will he clarify what will happen in the case of a lo...
Andy Burnham | 437 c792 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point, and we are looking at whether a replacement fee can be introduced...
Charles Clarke | 437 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I begin by giving thanks to a number of co...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c798 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Charles Clarke | 437 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall not. That is why the introduction of identity cards needs to proceed incrementally, bui...
Charles Clarke | 437 c798 (Link to this contribution) No, not at this stage. To meet many concerns that have been raised, changes have been made in the Re...
Peter Bottomley | 437 c798 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way?
Mark Todd | 437 c790 (Link to this contribution) My first point was about net present value, which was not precisely what the KPMG report addressed. ...
Andy Burnham | 437 c790 (Link to this contribution) As the scheme progresses, we shall seek to share more information. The Chairman of the Select Commit...
Andy Burnham | 437 c792 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way one more time, to my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), who was a member...
Speaker | 437 c791 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly not for me to determine that. The Minister has the Floor, and when he decides to sit...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c791 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps I might seek some advice. Would it be in order fo...
Andy Burnham | 437 c791 (Link to this contribution) I remember saying that to the hon. Gentleman, and I will of course take on board those issues as we ...
Tim Farron | 437 c791 (Link to this contribution) On consulting other Departments and the costs that have yet to be built in, does the Minister recall...
Andy Burnham | 437 c791 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman has read the Bill, he will know that people are required to notify the authori...
Alex Salmond | 437 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) May I bring this particular issue into even sharper focus? The Minister has said, a year after the S...
Andy Burnham | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman, who was a member of the Standing Committee, should make that...
Andy Burnham | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to other Departments making a contribution to ...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister confirm that one of these sources of income will be other Departments? That being t...
Andy Burnham | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) I shall talk about the issues raised by the Chairman of the Select Committee now. I listened careful...
Alex Salmond | 437 c789 (Link to this contribution) How is it possible for the House to place any credibility on the Government’s estimates when they ha...
Andy Burnham | 437 c790 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned the KPMG report earlier. We have said that a summary of the report will be ...
Mark Todd | 437 c790 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend touched on the net present value of the project. Will he place in the Library a calcu...
Stewart Hosie | 437 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) On Second Reading, the Government failed miserably to argue for the five stated justifications for t...
Martin Salter | 437 c807 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, for chiding the Liberal Democrats a little. We voluntarily hand ...
Speaker | 437 c807 (Link to this contribution) Order. Private conversation is getting far too loud.
Martin Salter | 437 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) : This is not the first time that I have debated this issue in this place. During earlier exchanges,...
Speaker | 437 c807 (Link to this contribution) Order. The House should come to order. I call Martin Salter, on the Third Reading of the Bill.
Martin Salter | 437 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) The UK is introducing biometric passports to help fight passport fraud and forgery, to help the publ...
Speaker | 437 c801 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary was certainly doing some recollecting, but I hope that he will now address his re...
Alistair Carmichael | 437 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) When we subject today’s proceedings to mature reflection we will realise that the House missed an op...
David Winnick | 437 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) : The Bill will undoubtedly receive its Third Reading, probably with a slightly greater majority tha...
Lord Garnier | 437 c801-4 (Link to this contribution) : I begin by agreeing with one thing that the Home Secretary said. I, too, offer my thanks to the Cl...
Charles Clarke | 437 c801 (Link to this contribution) I accept your injunction, Madam Deputy Speaker. I understand the sensitivity on the official Opposit...
Charles Clarke | 437 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I hope hon. Members will acknowledge, I often give way a great d...
Geoffrey Robinson | 437 c800 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Speaker | 437 c800 (Link to this contribution) Order. The Home Secretary will determine when he is ready to give way.
Charles Clarke | 437 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. For the Government’s part, I have ensured that the fee-setting pow...
Lord Garnier | 437 c801 (Link to this contribution) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We all enjoy a little bit of banter, but we are debatin...
John McDonnell | 437 c799 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Speaker | 437 c799 (Link to this contribution) Order. The Home Secretary has made it clear that at this moment in time he will not give way.
Charles Clarke | 437 c799 (Link to this contribution) No—[Hon. Members: ““Give way!””] I have made it clear that I will not give way—[Hon. Members: ““Why ...
Andy Burnham | 437 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to give the hon. Gentleman the reply that he asked for. We have been able to set t...
Nick Palmer | 437 c809 (Link to this contribution) : In the one minute remaining, I would like to celebrate the fact that the Bill is finally introduci...
Tony McNulty | 437 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) We need to start with those matters on which we all apparently agree, certainly in terms of official...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c770 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 7, in page 7, line 20 [Clause 8], after ‘individual’, insert—
Lord Garnier | 437 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) I regret to say that my right hon. Friend is entirely correct. Nothing that I learnt from the Govern...
Nick Palmer | 437 c750-1 (Link to this contribution) On a point of clarification, my hon. Friend cited Denmark as an example of a country that was introd...
Tony McNulty | 437 c719 (Link to this contribution) I fully intend to give the motion the short shrift that it deserves. The matters of substance about ...
Andy Burnham | 437 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) I do as well. I welcomed the Chairman’s observations: he made a number of sensible points, and it be...
Neil Gerrard | 437 c751 (Link to this contribution) There is a difference between a personal register and one that contains all our biometrics. My under...
Tobias Ellwood | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) I think that this is a bit of a red herring. The amendments are concerned with how we can make the r...
Julia Goldsworthy | 437 c765 (Link to this contribution) On that point, will the Minister publish the gateway reviews that have been undertaken in respect of...
John Penrose | 437 c776 (Link to this contribution) On the point about a regressive charge, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is likely to fall most...
Alex Salmond | 437 c783 (Link to this contribution) As always, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I accept your advice, but the question of opportunity cost bears on w...
Speaker | 437 c760 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman persists in using the term ““you””, but he must use the correct parliament...
Alan Reid | 437 c758 (Link to this contribution) Of course, it is a question not only of distance but of the ability to get to a registration centre....
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 437 c730 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being notably generous in giving way. This provision pertains to who is to maintai...
Nick Palmer | 437 c748 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for missing the first moments of my hon. Friend’s speech. Does not he agree that even th...
Patrick Mercer | 437 c728 (Link to this contribution) That is simply not the case. As the Minister is well aware, those terrorists attacked again within t...
David Heath | 437 c717 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be recommitted to a Select Committee. Members hold many serious reserv...

Notes

Amendment to division list at 437 c794 - in the Ayes, insert "Taylor, David".

Subjects

Disclosure of information
Biometrics
Crime prevention
Applications
Costs
Fraud
Fees and charges
Immigration controls
Identity cards
National identity register
Proof of identity
Passports
Registration

Legislation

Identity Cards Bill 2005-06

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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