Health and Social Care Bill

My Lords, I first thank the seven Peers who added their voices to the amendment. I thank my noble friend the Minister for an extremely thoughtful and comprehensive reply. None the less, it would be dishonest of me to say that he convinced me on all counts. It is perhaps asking too much on such a complicated business to have full satisfaction. The one thing that I am bound to say is that the Minister's interpretation of these various provisions in the various codes is different from mine. I am a lawyer extremely long in the tooth and I do not think that the provisions that he quoted, although they look helpful on the face of it, actually work in practice. That is evidenced by the total absence of any disciplinary measures—ever, as far as I can see—against doctors acting improperly in relation to queue-jumping. However, that is in the past. I must quickly answer questions raised of me by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Ribeiro. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, is the easiest to answer: the amendment does not cover the existing NHS trusts, only the NHS foundation trusts. However, I think that the NHS trusts are going to be out of existence in a couple of years' time. I saved the House by not including that; I would have had it at Third Reading if necessary. As to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, he can go to his private knacker any day, any place, any time and pay what he likes. To the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, the answer is that, if you are having private treatment within an NHS hospital, the amendment would prevail, had it passed; namely, you could not then barge the queue because you were a private patient in respect of essential clinical care. It really is as simple as that. I do not get the sense from the House that noble Lords want a Division on this matter. I do get the sense that they are impressed by what the Minister said, particularly in relation to the management code. That could make a very big difference. The only thing that I ask my noble friend the Minister—if he is with me—is that he just keeps an eye on the issue at the heart of this amendment and the debate, and, in the new regime that we are ushering in, on the concerns behind this amendment, shared by many in the country.