Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Thank you very much for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker, particularly given that I went on slightly too long. I apologise for that. I agree to some extent with the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) in that I am uncomfortable with new clause 5, but it is for completely different reasons, as he might imagine. On the issue of trusting the Home Secretary, it is not a question of trusting an individual; I would not trust anybody with that kind of power unchecked by this Parliament. For me, that is a matter of principle, and it is not a reflection on any individual. I am quite sure, despite what was said earlier in the debate, that I will never have that responsibility—I am sure that he is very glad about that—but I would not trust myself to have those powers either. I would like the Minister to clarify some issues, because we have not had the chance to go through this in detail in Committee. I am uncomfortable with the idea of having emergency legislation to step up the powers, because I simply cannot envisage any circumstance in which I would want to see it used. However, in the review the Government have taken the line that there are some hard to foresee possibilities where it might be needed. If that is the case, I think it is right to proceed in this way. I do not necessarily agree with the Government and would have liked the review to have gone even further, but I can understand where they are coming from. If that is where we are coming from, there is clearly a need to have some way of installing the measure when Parliament is not sitting. Some have misunderstood this point as meaning that the power will be available to the Secretary of State when Parliament is in recess. It is clear that if the situation was so urgent that we needed to reduce the civil liberties that we give people during recess, we should be recalled. It would be important that we were recalled. However, there is a difference when there is no Parliament that can be recalled. If there is to be such a system, although I am not happy about it, I am pleased with this system and understand it. I am also pleased that the Government have accepted the need for parliamentary scrutiny. That is a move forward from their previous position, as I mentioned earlier. There are a few things that I would like to understand about how the system will work. First, the clause does not say enough for my taste about what kind of emergency would be required for the Secretary of State to take such a temporary power during a period when there was no Parliament. There is the term ““by reason of urgency””. Perhaps I am naive about how parliamentary legislation works, but I would like to hear more about the fact that it must be a serious case and not just something that has to be done now. There is a difference between ““urgent”” and ““important””, as we all know. There is also a difference between ““urgent”” and ““emergent””, if that is a valid word to use—I am sure that Hansard will tell me. I would like to know why the Minister has chosen not to use the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 in this case. I am sure that he will be able to give a detailed response to that. I am also interested to understand what sort of consultation there would be if the Secretary of State were to make an order during such a time, whether in terms of statute or a commitment from the Government. We must bear it in mind that we are talking about the time of a general election, when there might be particularly fevered political debate. I am sure that this would not happen with any Home Secretary whom we can envisage, but the power could be used as a political gambit—as a tool to show how tough they are on the causes of crime. What sort of consultation would there be? Would there be some kind of Privy Council process through which a few people are nominated to be asked? Would there be judicial oversight of the process? How would that work and what safeguards would there be? I notice that under new clause 6, a temporary enhanced TPIM order will last for 90 days. I should be grateful if the Minister would explain why it is 90 days. It seems to me that the starting point should be the shortest period possible until fresh legislation can be passed. That would include the period of the election until after the Queen's Speech. Perhaps there could be a time period after the Queen's speech, even though it may not be done on day one. I would like it to be as short a time as possible and would at least like some justification for it being 90 days. I will say a little about Opposition amendments 1 to 4. I am keen that the enhanced emergency powers should not be available easily. I do not want them gradually to become one of the normal things that a Home Secretary uses, with one having to be used slightly unexpectedly and then one being quite useful on another occasion, until gradually they become more common, as has happened with so many other things. For that reason I disagree, as I am sure Opposition Members will not be surprised, with giving the Home Secretary these powers, whether under amendment 1 with no parliamentary checks, under amendment 2 with an order first—I would rather see the whole, tougher parliamentary process, rather than a simple order—or under amendment 3 with the retrospective orders. I am still concerned about proposed new subsection (2) in amendment 3, which says that the Secretary of State can make an order and essentially do anything they want, subject to judicial checks, with it being approved retrospectively and with no time limit. If they wished, the Government could make sure that the Commons and the Lords did not get around to voting on it for a year or two years. That is a real concern. I will not say anything further on amendment 4 because the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East has made it clear that it has been subsumed. This again seems to be an effort by the Opposition to keep as much as possible of control orders. It is clear that what they would like is for control orders to continue ad infinitum. If they cannot have that, they want either TPIMs with control order powers or control orders for a bit longer followed by TPIMs with control order powers, or some such mixture. For those reasons, I disagree with their proposals. I will not vote against the Government's new clauses because I understand where they are coming from. I hope that the Minister will respond on the detail. I hope that the other place will have more of a chance to consider these important issues on how we deal with emergency rules during the period of a general election when there has been a serious terrorist attack. That is a complex set of things that bears more attention than we are able to give it here.