Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

I am sure that we shall touch on that subject. We are, of course, primarily concerned with the question of why people become radicals and what system makes them behave as they have behaved, but the way in which legislation is—in my hon. Friend's view—rushed through Parliament might well be one of our considerations. I think it healthy for the House to have heard the comments of my hon. Friend, of the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) and of the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), who observed that when Parliament discusses these matters the measures concerned go through on the nod. I believe that the role of the Opposition—my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) did a very good job in this regard—is to scrutinise and probe the Government, and that is exactly what happened when this Minister was the shadow Minister. Perhaps we regret not being more robust on issues of this kind when we are in opposition, but I hope that that will happen now. The five-year period for the review is probably too long; we need to consider it earlier and much more objectively, and that might be one of the issues that we can examine as the debate progresses. I have three points to make. The first concerns the process that the Government appear to have adopted. I hope that the Minister will reassure me about something about which he did not manage to reassure me when I probed him earlier, namely the role of Lord Macdonald. I understand that Lord Macdonald was appointed by the Government to review legislation. As a former Director of Public Prosecutions and a distinguished lawyer, he is someone whom I think we ought to consult as we present new proposals. Has he seen the Bill, and, if so, what were his comments on it and on the changes that have been made in the last few days? The same applies to Lord Carlile, who gave evidence that was diametrically opposed to that of Lord Macdonald. He wants to keep control orders, but, as colleagues will recall, when he appeared before the Select Committee he proposed a three-tier structure that he felt could replace them. Will the Minister enlighten the House on the process that was adopted, and confirm that there has been widespread consultation with the very people—Lord Carlile and Lord Macdonald—who the Government believed could contribute to the discussion? The second issue arises from what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I refer to the evidence given to the Committee about resources. I do not want to dance around the subject—I will be quite straightforward with the Minister—and I do not seek to make a party-political point, but I think that the Minister will feel much more able to defend the Government's proposals if he has the comfort of knowing the Metropolitan police have revised their view. We realise that there has been some change at the top. The former head of counter-terrorism, Mr Yates—who, of course, ought to have been writing the letters concerned—is no longer in his post. There is now a new head of counter-terrorism, Cressida Dick, whom we have not had the opportunity of bringing before the Committee, although we hope to do so during our inquiry into the roots of radicalism. However, I think that, to protect himself and to reassure Parliament, the Minister ought to receive a letter of comfort. If he does not write to ask whether what DAC Osborne said has been replaced by new assurances, I shall probably do so myself. Like the hon. Member for Cambridge, I have a great deal of time for the Minister. I trust and value what he says, and I do not believe that he would come to the Dispatch Box and say that he had received assurances from the Metropolitan police if he had not. However, some of us need to be convinced. Mr Osborne is, after all, the deputy head of counter-terrorism in the Metropolitan police, which is quite a senior position. If he has given evidence that has subsequently had to be adapted because of whatever has happened in the last few weeks, let us have confirmation of that letter. If the Minister says that he is prepared to take such action, he will reassure me and, I believe, other Members. My final point relates to the need for us to be able to scrutinise anti-terrorism legislation without feeling nervous about doing so. Let me give credit to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who has been in the House for longer than I have. Even under a Labour Government, he and I went into opposite Division Lobbies to vote on anti-terrorism legislation, because he was prepared to scrutinise and to ask his questions. That is really important. Only the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), given his vast experience in the security services and the armed forces, will have the kind of practical experience that is necessary in cases such as this, and he will talk on the basis of that experience. I do not mean to insult anyone in the House, but the rest of us are mere politicians, and we do not have that kind of experience. It is obviously valuable to hear from people such as the hon. Gentleman. That is why it is important for there to be proper scrutiny and for evidence that is given to Select Committees or other Committees of the House to be accurate, so that when we decide on the legislation we can be above party politics in dealing with terrorism issues, as I hope we always can be. We should be mindful of the fact that whatever resources we put into counter-terrorism, there are those outside who have the time, the space and, in some cases, the fanaticism to be able to challenge what we do, and we should always be extremely cautious in dealing with issues of this kind.