European Union Bill

In the election of an individual Member of Parliament, however low the turnout is, it does not nullify the election, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about constitutional change. It is a very different point. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, given how connected he is on these issues, would be among the first to recognise that a long-term constitutional change is very different from electing an individual Member of Parliament. We on this side would be prepared to consider a figure that the Minister puts forward but, more important perhaps, a figure that his colleagues in another place would find acceptable—something perhaps better than an abysmally low figure. However, in order to have future treaties or treaty changes decided on a turnout, however we define what is abysmally low, the turnout must be such that it does not undermine our parliamentary system of government. Low turnouts will simply not be credible. They will not be credible to most sensible people and the British public are sensible people. Parliament has a duty to deal with these matters. We have to shoulder our responsibilities. We cannot just run for cover when something difficult is put to us. How can the Government suggest that asking the British public to decide on the appointment of Advocates-General will somehow reconnect the British public with Europe? Plainly, it will not. It is far more likely to turn off the British public and I suspect that the Minister knows that as well as the rest of us do. Either that or we will simply revert to the point where we do not have referendums at all. This move towards dealing with any tricky issue by means of a referendum is simply not consistent with our parliamentary democracy. As my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford said, the turnouts would not even be of the abysmally low level described by the Deputy Prime Minister. The turnout would more likely be not abysmal but quite catastrophic—perhaps 10 or 15 per cent. That is not democratic. That is undermining democracy, at least in its parliamentary form. Let me turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, who has in the past spoken passionately about reconnecting the British public and has good credentials on this issue. He spoke of the widespread scepticism in the country about protecting the UK’s interest against the EU. I agree with him that there is that view. How widespread and how deep is the scepticism may be a matter of debate between us, but he has always aspired to the dissemination of information about Europe and he spoke about those points with great eloquence at Second Reading. Four speakers spoke in support of the Government’s position on this—the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Nicholson, Lady Falkner of Margravine and Lady Brinton. It was perhaps noticeable that those were the only four and they may give some comfort to the Minister. However, he will also note, as we do, that the position of the Liberal Democrats is at odds with how they voted on the possibility of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, said that this was a wearisome business. At this time of night, I think that we all sympathise with his sentiments. He told us that there had been a time when only two members of the Major Cabinet had supported the use of a referendum and that he, as one of them, was ““a bit wobbly””. I do not believe that dealing with the coalition document should be anything like ““approaching an altar””, as he described it. The point about the coalition document is that it was never put to the British public. The noble Lord said that the significance clause was perhaps a way out of the problem but, as we discussed earlier today—although many of us may feel that it was quite a long time ago now—the significance clause will in itself probably be the subject of huge controversy and no doubt of judicial review, too. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will agree with his experienced and wise friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that on any issue a turnout of a very low proportion of the population really cannot trump the views of Parliament. Let us suppose that the turnout is only 10 per cent or 15 per cent. Why should that view trump the views of a Parliament that was elected by perhaps 60 per cent or 65 per cent of the electorate? How is that by any measure conceivably democratic? How is it right? How is it rational? The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, says that people must be listened to. Of course they must be, but they must be listened to if a turnout is of significant numbers of the public to express a view. It has to be a number that can be interpreted as a national view on the issue that is under consideration. However, if the turnout is very low—abysmally low, for example—those views should be only of an advisory nature. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, was right when she said that the Bill expresses no confidence in parliamentary democracy. If the Minister will listen to no one else, surely he will listen to the noble Baroness with all her experience. Surely he, who rightly voted against a referendum on Lisbon, can see the force of this argument. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, says that the tone of the debate was one of ““We know best”” and of expecting deference. I have to say to the noble Baroness that I really did not recognise that in the debate today. I was sorry that she said what she did. I thought that she put words into the mouths of others in a way that was simply not sustainable by reference to what noble Lords had actually said. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that referendums for the most part should be of an advisory nature. He said that they should be on every occasion. I think that on occasions there are points where they may be accepted on a mandatory basis, but only in exceptional circumstances. The point to which I hope that your Lordships listened carefully was that made by the noble Lord about the mechanisms on negotiating in Europe. I do not know how many noble Lords have had that pretty awesome responsibility that the noble Lord shouldered in a previous life. However, he is right. The responsibility to deliver on what you initial is a grave one and, if you cannot deliver on it, it is right that you should resign. This is not an arcane or trivial point. It is fundamental to how international treaty-based alliances work and no one knows that better than the noble Lord, although I hope that there are others in the Chamber who recognise the force of the points that he made. My noble friend Lord Foulkes said that he would like to see a Thatcher amendment, as it was described earlier in the debate. I think that he has a point. He is quite right to say that people do not always vote on what is before them. Unfortunately, they often vote on a whole number of other issues and sometimes they vote on the popularity of those putting forward the matters on which they are meant to be voting. The AV referendum will be an acid test. It may well mean that the application of referendums without thresholds in the future will be completely unacceptable. I hope that noble Lords recognise the Pandora’s box that may well be opened on 5 May. The Minister has a brief. He will stick to that brief this evening; he will stick to it like glue. I know that and he knows that. Having been a Minister for many years, I understand that probably as well as anyone in your Lordships’ House. But I also know that Ministers must listen to the voices around them in this Chamber. They must listen to the tone of the debate and come to judgments about what it is right to do next. The Minister bears a great responsibility in that respect. He bears a great responsibility to make a judgment about what is right in terms of the advice and guidance that he gives to his fellow Ministers about the way in which this issue should be pursued on Report. I am sure that the Minister has been listening, because he is a good and sensible man, and that he will put what is right before party-political advantage.