Academies Bill [Lords]

I do not think that it is sufficient. The hon. Gentleman is right: of course one would consult teachers, non-teaching staff and pupils differently. That is why our amendment states:"““The Secretary of State shall issue guidance as to how””" that is done. Of course the consultation will be carried out in different ways, and that is why we have included the word ““guidance””. On the need for consultation with neighbouring schools, the Bill does not require good and outstanding schools that become academies to partner schools that are in difficulty or need support. I know that in the other place it was believed—many of my hon. Friends believe it too—that such a provision should be on the face of the Bill. Merely stating that they should do engage in such consultation is not sufficient. Many of us have made the point time and again that the complete elimination of local authorities from this situation is not acceptable at all. Let me talk about amendment 77. The Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), was quoted by the hon. Member for Southport. If hon. Members think that I am making too much of the idea that a consultation should take place before, not after, the giving of an academy order, they should listen to what the Chair of the Select Committee said during one of the debates last week—it bears repeating. On the subject of consultations that took place after an academy order was made, and not before, he said:"““Those consulted in such circumstances would have good grounds for feeling that they were participating in a charade. I ask those on the Government Front Bench to consider that.””—[Official Report, 19 July 2010; Vol. 514, c. 49.]" In his reply, the Minister needs to explain why it is not a charade and why the Chair of the Select Committee is wrong or misguided in making that comment. Is he wrong? Has he got it wrong? Does he not understand the process? Of course he understands that the making of an academy order comes before an academy agreement is signed—everybody understands that, and we have all read the Bill. We are saying that the discussion of, and consultation on, an academy order—by the way, I can find no example of what an academy order would actually be—should take place before it is made and not afterwards. Perhaps the Minister—in answer to the Chair of the Select Committee, if not to me—can tell us what an academy order will contain. What will it look like? What will be in it? Will we have the opportunity for some sort of consultation on what an academy order should be? I accept the points made in the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), but I hope that they agree that amendment 78, tabled in my name, pulls the amendments together in the way that we would all want. Let me say something more about new clause 1. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) makes an important point about the fact that the whole process is one way. If we believe that head teachers and governing bodies will consult local people in their desire to become academies and if we believe in localism, why should not those people have the opportunity to revert back and say, ““We don't want to stay as an academy. We've decided that it does not work for us, and we're concerned about the situation””? Let us take the Government's process as part of this example. If the head and the governing body make an application to the Secretary of State that they wish to be a local authority maintained school, what is wrong with that? I would be interested to hear the Minister's response. Does localism work as long as it agrees with Government policy or does localism really mean localism, even if it does not agree with Government policy? That is the point. It is difficult to support new clause 1 to the extent of voting for it, because it has flaws, but the hon. Lady's point is nevertheless one of principle. There should be the opportunity for schools to revert from academy status back to being local authority maintained. As for the point about whether the limit should be 10% or whether some other procedures would have to be put in place for it to happen, if the Government agreed with the principle behind the proposal—of course, they would not say so if they did not agree—they would normally say in Committee, ““This is an important point. We will take it away and consider whether there is a way in which it can be put into effect and we will come back with a Government amendment on Report.”” That cannot happen today, because of the process that we are going through. That is a problem. I agree with the principle of the new clause and I await with interest the answer to the question that I posed about localism and what it means to the Minister. It is a fundamental question, so I shall repeat it. Do the Government support the localism agenda as long as people agree with them, or, as soon as those people disagree, will the Government say that they do not really agree with the localism agenda?