Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill (Money) (No. 3)

Of course, I obey exactly what you say, Mrs. Heal, but the Liberal Democrats have in this debate taken a holier-than-thou position on the electoral system. I am merely pointing out that they are in no position to do so, but I will move on. There is a great argument that most PR systems suffer from a notably unfair mechanism. I raised with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), the former leader of the Conservative party, the question of the German system. In Germany, the Free Democratic party has an almost perpetual lien on being Foreign Secretary. That is an arrangement. Herr Genscher was Foreign Secretary for so long that he could not remember whether the world was different when he started from the way it was when he finished, because it had been such a long time. Germany is back in that kind of politics again now. That is all very well, but it means that the Free Democrat voter has more power than any other voter in that system, so it is not fair. The trouble with the AV system, as with many others, is that it means that those who vote for a minority party have, in effect, two votes. It is no good saying that they do not. If I vote for a majority party, I have only one go at it. The person who votes first for ridiculous parties such as UKIP has another vote, and no doubt votes for the Liberal Democrats. I understand that if Liberal Democrat voters are polled, there are proportionally more anti-Europeans among them than in any other of the major parties. Suppose the person votes for the Liberal Democrats. They do not win, so the voter still has a chance to vote Conservative or Labour.