Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2009

I thank the Minister for the exposition that she has given of the case for this instrument. Like other noble Lords today, I am delighted to see her back at the Dispatch Box. I strongly support the instrument in the terms in which it has been laid out. I wanted to pose a question but, having listened to the Minister, I have changed my mind about what the most burning question is. I had wanted to ask why the Government reasonably believed two years ago that it might be possible at this stage to dispense with non-jury trials as an element in the justice system in Northern Ireland. Listening to her, I accept that the reasons she has given provide an answer, in a way—we are dealing with unprecedented and unpredictable circumstances in the recent revival of republican violence. I find myself with another question, though: why do the Government believe that two years from now they will not be coming back to this House and asking for a further extension? I want to develop a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, when he referred to what is happening in the Irish Republic. In fact, the Dáil has moved beyond the point of discussion of this idea; last night the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill in Dublin passed its committee stage and it is expected to become law this week. It will mean, bluntly, that it will abolish the use of jury trial for a range of new offences, especially those concerned with organised criminality of the sort that we are dealing with. We accept that much of this crime in Ireland has a cross-border basis. Is it realistic to suggest that the Irish Republic is moving towards a system where it accepts that it is not going to be using jurors because of the prevalence of intimidation in many of these cases while a few miles away in Northern Ireland, which is an equally fraught terrain, two years from now we will move completely back to jury trials? My suspicion and my fear—I regret this, because I understand exactly the underlying philosophy motivating what the Minister has said, and I accept the desirability of jury trials—is that, in such circumstances, it will not be possible two years from now unless things develop in Irish society in a way that is more benign than we might believe, or than the Irish Ministry of Justice seems to believe as it lays out the rationale for this major change in Irish law. I have a question about the relationship between the Northern Ireland Office and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in Dublin. Going back to the days when Sir John Chilcot was the Permanent Under-Secretary, if not before, the relationship between those two offices has traditionally been a close and friendly one—perhaps closer and more consistently friendly than that with other departments of state in Dublin. I wonder whether the Minister is in a position to say anything about whether these current proposals have been discussed with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in Dublin in the light of what that department is doing with regard to the Irish Republic, where we are with that relationship and the type of discussions that go on. I repeat, although with a heavy heart, that it would be irresponsible to do anything other than to accept the basis of the instrument.