Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL]

My Lords, we are revisiting Clause 16 thanks to the ingenuity of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. I am very happy to say again, very briefly, why this is an important clause. Amendments 170A and 170B in effect seek to remove it from the Bill by making the commencement contingent on a range of factors, including, most notably and unusually, a further Act of Parliament. We had an extensive debate on the clause, and I absolutely respect the noble Baroness’s concern that it may blur lines of accountability between the members and officers of local authorities. We are certain that it does not, and I am glad to have the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, on that. But I do understand that we disagree on the matter and I recognise that her views are sincerely and properly held. If I thought that she was right, I would be supportive of them because these are important issues. I am happy to place on the record why I do not believe that it is the case. Officers will continue to be accountable to members as the employers. Members will be democratically accountable to the public. Officers will not be directly accountable to members of the public. Direct accountability is a matter for elected members. To be clear, this clause is about members of the public having a direct influence to call for officers to provide evidence at an overview and scrutiny committee which is open to the public. It does not give members of the public any rights or powers over the officers concerned—it does not interfere in lines of responsibilities. The noble Baroness said that this matter was about individuals. However, I disagree: it is about issues. Petitions are about issues. We expect that a petition will call for an issue to be debated and an officer to be invited to come and explain why certain decisions have been taken. It does not give members of the public direct access or the right of direct access to officers. Officers remain accountable to elected members. Let me state again that these provisions build on existing practice. Principal local authorities have overview and scrutiny committees, made up of members, who hold the authorities’ decision makers to account. Those committees already meet in public. Under Section 21(13) of the Local Government Act 2000, any officer of the authority can already be required to give evidence at a meeting of the overview and scrutiny committee, to inform their scrutiny of the council’s decisions and performance. Clause 16 provides that for certain officers, if enough people sign a petition—and that threshold will be set by the council itself; we are not telling councils where the bar should be placed—the overview and scrutiny committee will have to exercise its power to require an officer to give evidence. Clause 16 provides that authorities should specify in their petition scheme, so that everyone knows, which officers could be required to give evidence by a petition, but that the list must include the senior officers specified in Clause 16(5). We know that in practice, overview and scrutiny committees already call senior officers to give evidence, so we do not expect authorities to specify that junior officers should be among those defined as "relevant" under Clause 16(4). Although that does not completely answer the point that the noble Baroness raised in her Written Question to me, I hope that it is sufficient to place on the record that we would not expect that to happen. Clause 16 is entirely in line with the principle that local government should be as transparent as possible, and that officers are accountable to elected members. The noble Baroness quoted SOLACE, and there was nothing in that quotation that I felt I could disagree with. SOLACE said that we must not create an open season on officers and that we must avoid over-formalising requirements and other matters that, were I to read Hansard tomorrow morning I would certainly agree with. In its response to our consultation paper on improving accountability, SOLACE noted that senior officers regularly attend public meetings to explain council decisions and to answer questions from the public. That is what we mean by established practice: by allowing members of the local community to make use of petitions to influence the way in which scrutiny takes place. For the first time, citizens will be able to call in their petitions for O and S committees to consider the issues that are important to them and to ask for evidence on those issues from key officers to inform their examination. Petitions signed by the public will be able to trigger a meeting where elected members on the O and S committees examine evidence provided by officers who are accountable to those members as their employers. As meetings of the O and S committees are held in public, it will be open to anyone with an interest in the issue to attend and hear what an officer has to say. We have also built in necessary and important conditions and safeguards. First, local authorities are obviously best placed to consider the detail of how these provisions should work in the broader context, taking into account local circumstances and the petition scheme. Subsection (3), as I have said, provides that the authority’s petition scheme must specify how many signatures will be needed to require an officer to attend a public hearing. Secondly, it will be for authorities to determine which of their officers are liable to be called to give evidence in this way. A further question to which the noble Baroness drew attention was whether Clause 16 would allow for anyone called to be represented by a legal adviser or trade union representative. The clause builds on existing practice and therefore principal local authorities’ existing procedures in relation to officers’ attendance at O and S committees would apply. These may entitle the officer to be accompanied or represented by a legal adviser, trade union representative, member of the local authority or other person. I propose to put all these questions and responses, which have been scattered through Hansard over the past four weeks or so, into a bundle and then place them in the Library so that Members can consult them all together. Clause 16 requires as a minimum that petition schemes provide that the head of the paid service—the chief executive—and the most senior officers can be required to provide information on their activities at public meetings of an O and S committee, but it must be fair. This is exactly where I agree with SOLACE. The procedure must be fair so that officers are not exposed to inappropriate public scrutiny of their private lives. This must not be a kangaroo court and they must not be exposed to harassment or bullying. There is a paramount requirement that any petition, including one calling for an officer to give evidence, that is vexatious, abusive or otherwise inappropriate will be excluded from the process anyway by Clause 14(1)(b), and from the requirement for the local authority to respond in the first place. Any petition that looks as if it is an opportunity for personal abuse or attack would never get near an O and S committee. To further safeguard officers, Clause 16(2)(d) provides that grounds for attendance at an O and S committee must relate to their specific job and cannot relate to personal circumstances or character. Guidance under the Local Government Act 2000 is already in place to cover the way in which O and S committees should conduct themselves when questioning an officer so that they are not put under undue pressure or the scope is too wide. I understand fully the concern of the noble Baroness that there should not be any unintended consequences, but I believe that we have something here that is responsible, that builds on practice and can generate confidence in the way councils carry out their work. The only innovation introduced by the provisions is the ability of local people genuinely to influence the scope and process of examination. I have to say also that I do not think that the noble Baroness’s concerns are shared by the bodies that one would expect to demonstrate concern if there was an issue. In Grand Committee, for example, we discussed the fact that CIPFA had concerns about Clause 16. My officials have since met representatives from CIPFA and have explained that the meetings at which officers would give evidence are meetings of the O and S committee which can be attended by members of the public. On the basis that this builds on current practice, CIPFA confirmed that it no longer believes that Clause 16 blurs the accountability of officers and elected members. We have agreed to work together with the body to produce guidance on the clause. Moreover, I do not need to remind her that the Local Government Association itself has not supported the amendment. In fact, it would like to see the provisions in Clause 16 extended to cover employees of other local public bodies. Very briefly, I know that the noble Baroness will understand why I cannot accept her amendment. In terms of its content, I believe that we have met the consultation requirements that we make arrangements for extending these provisions to civil servants. On the first requirement, local authorities have been consulted about the provisions. This was done during the consultation process known as "Communities in Control". Welsh Ministers also intend to consult on the petitions provisions before they commence them in Wales. In addition, we are committed to working closely with the local government sector and the trade unions when developing guidance. The second condition is that we should consult the representatives of those officers who may come under the requirements of Clause 16; again, I believe that we have met that. Officials have met representatives from UNISON, SOLACE and CIPFA and we are committed to continuing those dialogues. The third condition is somewhat surreal because it requires the Government to consult with representatives of members of the Civil Service who may be seconded to local government at some point and who one day may work for local government. That is quite difficult for us to take on board, but essentially we have already held a public consultation on the provisions which I believe would cover future practice as well. On the role of civil servants, I do not want to rehearse at this hour what arrangements there are to call public servants to account before Select Committees, for example, but there are well worked out public practices for this. I respect why the noble Baroness has brought back this issue. I hope that I have reassured her as to the intentions, the practices and the outcomes that this clause will generate. I am sure that Clause 16 in no way undermines the accountability of members for local decision making. I hope she will understand why I cannot accept her amendment.