Northern Ireland Bill (Allocation of Time)

I want to speak fairly briefly, because we are short of time and I raised one or two issues on Second Reading. As I said, we welcome this model. It appears to us to be the best of the eight models, but we are concerned about one or two things. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) has reinforced the arguments about the open-ended nature of the situation. If policing and justice were devolved later this year—I hope that that will happen if the circumstances are right—how long would it take for a Minister to be in position? The hon. Gentleman is right that any Department needs a head, whether we call them a leader, a director, a Minister or something else. Otherwise, how can it function? If it can function perfectly well without that head, why should we have any Ministers at all? That is the logical conclusion of the argument. We believe that there has to be a head of Department. We also believe that because of the special and difficult circumstances in Northern Ireland, and because this move is ground breaking, it is inconceivable that there should not be a Minister to oversee the Department. After an Assembly election, there are seven days in which all the other Ministers can be appointed, yet there is no time limit for this particular appointment. Of course, given the difficulties and sensitivities, it could take more than the normal seven days to fill the position. We also recognise that discussions have been going on about who would be suitable—perhaps I should say acceptable—in the role. It could be that that person did not win their seat back after an election, so we would have to start all over again. It could take a bit longer than seven days. The time limit that we are suggesting is six months. According to the discussions that we have had, that is probably a long time, too. It probably is too long, but I wanted to put down some time limit and it is very difficult to come up with one. Given the record of deadlines being broken in Northern Ireland—the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), who is not in his place but has contributed to the debate, famously broke two absolutely unbreakable deadlines the year before last—we know that it is difficult to impose deadlines. However, we already have a deadline for the appointment of the other Ministers and I suggest that we ought to have a deadline for the appointment of this Minister. As the hon. Member for Thurrock said, that would concentrate minds on what is absolutely necessary, if nothing else. We are concerned about the immediate appointment if devolution takes place before the next Assembly elections. We are also concerned about the appointment after the next Assembly elections, so we tabled amendments 5, 6 and 8, which address those points. Amendment 8 refers to the time limits that can be taken to fill the office once the devolution order has been made, while amendment 5 requires the office to be filled within six months of the Assembly’s first meeting after an Assembly election. In amendment 6, we propose a default position. This is a difficult matter, as we want policing and justice to be devolved, as I have said repeatedly. It would therefore be deeply unsatisfactory to return the powers to the Secretary of State, but given the nature of the problem in Northern Ireland, that would probably be the least bad of all the options. The hon. Member for Thurrock has made his own suggestions about a fall-back position. I listened to him extremely carefully and do not have violent disagreements with what he said, but I think that I prefer our amendments. Amendment 9 refers to what would happen after 1 May 2012 if the Justice Department were dissolved. Again, I would consider it rather unsatisfactory if that happened; I would very much prefer it if the Assembly voted to extend the present model beyond 2012 or if it chose another one, but once again we need consider what a fall-back position might be. In amendment 9, I have proposed the same one that would apply if the Ministers were not appointed, either now or after the Assembly election—that is, that control of policing and justice would come back to this place. Again, I think that that would be highly unsatisfactory, although I do not believe that it will happen. The delicate negotiations that have allowed us to get as far as we have lead me to believe that we are starting to build on ground that is rather more substantial than sand. I hope that we do not get to the position where the proposed fall-back would apply. Like the hon. Member for Thurrock, I do not know exactly what would be dissolved. If the Department were dissolved, who would give direction and carry out the administration? I listened very carefully as the Minister of State, who has momentarily left the Chamber, explained what would happen. He said that the Assembly would be charged with coming up with another model or reaching some further agreement. However, if no agreement has been reached by 1 May 2012, which is almost three years off, will the parties involved be able to come to another agreement so very quickly after that date? Alternatively, will the whole structure be in chaos? With respect to the people who work in Departments with responsibility for matters such as tourism and so on, I point out that we are dealing with matters that are substantially more difficult and dangerous for the people of Northern Ireland and, given what has happened in years gone by, possibly for people in Great Britain as well. Having listened to what the Minister of State said, I am not entirely satisfied that we can leave the Bill as it stands, and I think that I would prefer a fall-back position to be put in place. I do not intend to speak at any length to amendment 7, which is a probing amendment to ensure the independence of the PSNI and the judiciary in Northern Ireland. It addresses the concerns that have existed in Northern Ireland for a number of years and which have prevented the devolution of policing and justice. I would very much welcome the Minister’s observations on that amendment as well.