Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL]

My Lords, I was a watch-keeping officer, so I can manage to go on for 11 and a half hours. Your Lordships should be careful. Some of the questions will be addressed in Committee. On those questions that I do not come to, I will write with the answers for those noble Lords who particularly want me to. However, an awful lot of the questions were about what is not in the Bill rather than what is in it. I think that there has been some confusion on the part of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lord Patten, and others about what I referred to as, "““the biggest shake-up of our border control and immigration system for a generation””." I was not talking about this specific Bill, which is very small and constrained. Over the past decades, before I came into the House, I, like a lot of people, watched with some amazement while politicians and Governments of different hues totally failed to grasp the issues of border control and immigration and left the playing field open to racists and extremists, which was very unfortunate. I think that we are now trying to get to grip with these things. By ““the biggest shake-up””, I am referring not to this small Bill, although it is part of it, as I shall explain, but to the whole points-based system, e-borders, which is a major initiative, ID cards for foreign nationals and so on. We have a border force already. The UKBA consists of the visas section, what was the UKBIA and HMRC officers who were working on the borders. They are already working closely together, but we need Part 1 of the Bill so that they can get ahead and do all the things that they need to do as a combined and composite group. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, mentioned the phrase ““war against terrorism””. I hate that expression. Indeed, when I first came to this job, in July 2007, I appeared in the media to say that I did not like the expression. I see that other Ministers have now said that, too. I assure the noble Lord that what we have done in border control and in our counterterrorism strategy, with CONTEST 2, which is refreshed, has very definitely made us safer. The fact that by 2010 we will be getting 95 per cent of PNR data and that we count people out and in makes a gigantic and fantastic difference. Therefore, in answer to the question, ““Does this make us safer?””, posed by the noble Lord, Lord Patten, the answer is yes. This legislation, along with the other measures, will make us safer, but this is a very precisely focused and small Bill. These changes are essential. As I said, we have 4,500 officers who are depending on the Bill and waiting to receive training. That training was mentioned as being important and I absolutely agree. We have already trained some officers but they need the authority to conduct the necessary actions as part of this uniformed force. It does not mean that every one of them will automatically become all-purpose customs, revenue and immigration officers. We will still maintain appropriate specialisations and operational tasking but, once the border force is trained and designated—and I repeat that the training is very important—we will be able to increase dramatically its flexibility and efficiency in combating the different activities and threats at all our borders and ports. For the first time, the officers of our border force will be trained and designated with the necessary powers to examine people and goods as they cross our frontiers. Customs and immigration officers need not now be different individuals. As I said, the training is very important, and that package of training will unroll if we manage to get Part 1 of the Bill through. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, referred to working with the UKBA, and I thank them for that. I hope that we are always willing to try to improve our processes and work with people. The work of the Independent Asylum Commission has been splendid and I was glad that it was mentioned. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for his support for the UKBA. I have felt that perhaps sometimes it has not received as much support as it should have done. I quite understand the issue of the Dutch MP to which the noble Lord referred and why he could not be present at the beginning of the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said that she intended to bring forward an amendment concerning one single border police force. I am afraid that at the moment I think that that is wrong. The police are working very closely with the new UK Border Agency, but under the noble Baroness’s proposal we could face all sorts of administrative problems. ACPO is not at all clear on this. The head of ACPO likes it but other parts of ACPO and other parts of the police do not. It would involve big costs and I absolutely do not think that now is the time to do this. As I said in my opening speech, which noble Lords will be able to read in Hansard, we have taken some measures which make the police work even closer with the new UK Border Agency, and I believe that that is the best way to do things. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked whether the integration of the customs and immigration functions would lead to a reduction in the number of staff. That is absolutely not the aim. The aim is effectively to have more staff because one man can do a number of things. That is important in small ports in particular, where there are no extra people and one man can do several things. A watch system can be set up and more places can be covered. Therefore, the proposals will allow for a better deployment of staff. I believe that the Bill will improve the breadth of our protection, and the extra flexibility will mean that over time the staff can be deployed to new areas very quickly. Noble Lords will know of the threats and so on that we sometimes see at small airports, and the new arrangements will allow much more flexibility to deal with that sort of thing. The unions have been very much engaged throughout this process, which has been positive and productive. Of course, it is always difficult when one makes such changes, but the unions have been consulted regularly and they are broadly supportive—in fact, very supportive—of our objectives. Clearly, there are issues relating to how the pay scales will work and regarding reward in the future. These things are still being negotiated and, in order to get them right, that formal negotiation will continue over time. I have been very impressed by how good morale is in the UKBA. It is a very large organisation and morale fluctuates at times but overall it is good. The HMRC part of it—the new bit—is pleased to be part of the border function. HMRC is much bigger and covers the whole of the United Kingdom. The 4,500 officers will be aimed specifically at the border, and generally they are very pleased to be part of that border force. I light-heartedly talked about uniforms but they are important. The uniform that the officers wore last year for the first time made a difference, as a number of noble Lords noted and as people have commented on. These things may seem very small but they make a difference. A uniform gives people the feeling that they are part of a group and makes them function better. Leadership and so on within some areas of the UKBA is very good. It is easy to point at areas where things go wrong, but often that is not the fault of the legislation; things happen in huge organisations. One has to work at getting them right and one does that by good leadership, getting people to do the right thing and punishing people when they get it wrong. We have to keep doing that until we get it right. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, mentioned PACE powers. They are not new. Customs officers already use them to arrest and detain smugglers, and the proposed legislation will enable them to retain these powers when they become part of the UKBA, so there will not be a mass of new things. In terms of charges being laid without the police, under current arrangements customs and immigration officers can arrest people and investigate offences, but only the police can charge them. That will not change. In practice, a decision on the charge is one for the CPS or indeed, the Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office. We talked about a piecemeal approach to the simplification Bill, on which I shall say more in a minute. The Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill makes specific changes to customs legislation and nationality law. The simplification Bill, which is heading rapidly towards 400 clauses—this is a complex and serious Bill on which people are working very hard all the time, so it cannot be rushed forward—will cover all immigration legislation since 1971 and will not cover the ground again on citizenship. I have mentioned the importance of training, which was raised by a number of noble Lords. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, mentioned it. It is very important and is very much part of our package. A number of noble Lords understandably felt strongly about citizenship. I reiterate that we have consulted widely on our proposals on earned citizenship, which are generally supported by the public. It is important to reiterate that migration has given and still does give huge benefits to our nation. It is a very positive thing. Having talked to the public, including first generation immigrants and everyone else, 70 per cent think that newcomers should earn the right to stay here, 83 per cent think that they should be made to learn English, and 70 per cent agree that they should be penalised on the path to citizenship if they do not follow the rules. There is clear support for what we are doing. I appreciate the intellectual weight and attention to detail that has gone into many of the points raised. We need a balanced response to the needs of migrants who want to make their home in this country, and the needs of the community in which they wish to settle. That balance is extremely difficult to achieve all the time. The Government believe in a firm but fair system. I know that some people come here because they cannot avoid it, but many choose to do so. We should be proud of the fact that most people choose to stay here. We are firm but fair in this country, and it is only through debate in places such as this that we have achieved that, and it is extremely healthy to do such things. The system of earned citizenship encourages people with the right values to become citizens. We all know that rights come with responsibilities, and the benefits of British citizenship should be earned. I do not like the expression that people are ““compelled”” to undertake voluntary service, but I understand why noble Lords feel that that is the case, as people will feel that that is how to get through the system quicker. I think that it is quite a noble objective to get people to be involved. It is a question of how to achieve that. Looking at the design group that has been set up I agree that we need to talk closely, think and maybe articulate better what are the precise requirements. That is right and we will have to do a little better to achieve that. It will be a fairly long negotiation to identify what are recognised as the important things. I know that my noble friend, Lady Quin, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, all picked up on that point. My noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith talked eloquently on citizenship. I understand exactly where he is coming from. Again, this is a very small Bill and we have gone for one small piece in it. I think that it is a good piece and something worth doing. It reminds me of how Wellington used to talk about Napoleon. He said that Napoleon's campaigns were like a great team of horses with a marvellous leather harness that fitted beautifully, but when it broke, that was it. Mine, he said, was bits of rope tied together, and when something went wrong, I knotted it and tied another bit of rope in, and that is why I always beat him. Sometimes, it makes sense to go for a small chunk of something. Great, grand schemes sometimes do not work. That is certainly my experience in life. They do not always work; they can do; but they do not always; and they are very complicated and it takes a long time to set them up. This small focused piece is worth doing. Dual nationality and passports were mentioned. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has written to me several times on passports. I am listening. There are some difficult areas there. I think that that overall the UK Passport Agency does well, but some issues need to be looked at closely. The issue of dual nationality and non-British citizens in our Armed Forces and our people fighting other armed forces must be addressed, but not in this Bill. As a sailor, if we had fought Trafalgar without people of other nationalities, including French, on our side, the outcome might have been rather different, so that is not new but something that we should perhaps look at a little more closely. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, for her valuable input. I have been very impressed by the quality, diligence and care of the people in detention centres, for example—our people from our agencies—who try really hard to get things right. Those are not easy jobs; they are horrible jobs. Not everyone who is held is a little sweetheart; some of them are very much not that. However, each case, no matter who they are, is a personal tragedy. When you are dealing with personal tragedies, it is extremely difficult. It is only fair that we should remember that the people who work there are ordinary British people working jolly hard and trying to do their best and, generally, they are and they do very well. We must have rules and we must have a system. The immigration simplification Bill, which, as I said, is already moving towards 400 clauses, is where that needs to be addressed. I could not agree more that it would be really nice if it was here now, but there are some things, especially in Part 1, that we need done as quickly as possible. It would be very nice to have that now, but people are working on it very hard and it is not that easy to do. There has been too much legislation. There are other areas where we should rationalise legislation. That is what we intend to do and are trying to get at. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about leave to remain and probationary citizenship. As I said, there is strong public support for the idea of requiring newcomers to pass through a period of provisional and probationary citizenship. My noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith spoke eloquently on that and said that the word probationary was quite attractive in that sense.