Welfare Reform Bill

I am not going to bandy figures around with the hon. Gentleman, but I can say that unemployment in the 1980s and early 1990s was a lot higher than it was in 1997 and is in the current situation. Also, the number of people on welfare benefits was considerably higher than the national average. It is obvious, as was noted by the chambers of commerce, that this is the point where we should be introducing systems to train people for when the upturn takes place. That is a message that is also coming through to me from local business men. It is not only a matter of national benefit, but important for the individual. The health benefits of having people in employment are self-evident, as is clear from the contribution made to the debate by Dame Carol Black. People denied work will tend to become introverted and lack social confidence, and there are related physiological conditions that go with that. This impacts on the health service, people's well-being and the national economy. Above all, it is essential to take children out of poverty. Obviously, the income that comes with a job is an essential part of that strategy, but over and above that there is the change in aspirations that comes for children who grow up in a house where there is a breadwinner—somebody who is succeeding. That considerably affects children's confidence and aspirations; without it, they are more likely to grow up with fewer aspirations and perhaps accept a life on the dole as their future. I want to talk about the social fund. First, let me say that I am a Labour and Co-operative Member of Parliament and, as such, a long-standing supporter, member and promoter of the credit union movement. I am therefore pleased about the recognition that credit unions could have a role to play in providing the social fund. That is an acknowledgement that credit unions are community-based financial organisations that often serve the elements of local populations that are unable to access financial services from other providers. It is certainly possible that they could play a role. However, I could not stand here and say that credit unions provide a comprehensive and possibly better service than we have currently. We must recognise that this is both a challenge and an opportunity. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt) said that credit unions are accessed by only a relatively small proportion of the total electorate; in fact, it is about 700,000 people. Inevitably, therefore, such a service provided by credit unions alone would be subject to a postcode lottery, even if one accepts that they are likely to be embedded in communities that are perhaps more likely to use the social fund than others. I am pleased that the Minister has nailed the canard about the interest charged on loans from the social fund. We are talking about financial institutions, albeit small and often operating on small margins, that have to survive, so there is the issue of what sort of payments the Government would make to credit unions for operating this facility.