Planning Bill

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, not only those who spoke in this short debate but also the many others who stayed to listen. I think that there is a widespread recognition that we are dealing here with something a great deal more significant even than Part 11 of the Planning Bill: the whole question of the relationship between the two Houses; the respective rights, roles and privileges of the two Houses. That issue has been raised by almost every noble Lord who has spoken and been recognised in all parts of the House, and for that I am grateful. When I started down this path and tabled the first amendment on Part 11 in Committee, proposing that this should be a matter for both Houses, not just for another place, I did not realise that it would raise such profound—I use the word advisedly—issues of constitutional importance. Like a clause that appeared earlier in the Bill—the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, will remember it—I thought that it was, as it were, an aberration. Earlier in the Bill, she tabled an amendment to ensure that a provision that had applied specifically to another place should apply to both Houses. In my innocence, that was what I thought I was doing as regards Part 11. However, as the debate has shown, the matter goes much wider than that. I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for her intervention just after I had spoken. She acknowledged that the House authorities had recognised that my amendment did not breach the conventions of the House, did not simply repeat what was in an earlier amendment and did not simply invite the same response, as it were, from another place and therefore that it was entirely in order. I am grateful to the House authorities for having made that clear to me and to the Leader of the House. We have had a hugely important short debate, but this must not be the end of it. I listened to the points made by noble Lords in all parts of the House. As I told the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, when I met her and John Healey in the office upstairs, I have been made aware that concerns about this are not confined to this side of the Chamber. Several people have pointed out to me that if the circumstances were different they would have supported my amendment, perhaps even the amendment on Report, which we lost—not ““soundly””, I must point out, but by six votes. Therefore, I think that this matter concerns the whole House. I was interested to hear the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who asked where this left social security regulations, a subject dear to the hearts of many noble Lords and noble Baronesses in this House, not least those on the Bishops’ Benches, who frequently make interventions on that matter. Is that an implication of the interpretation that the other place is putting on financial privilege? Wide issues are involved here. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde said to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House that we should not allow the rights of this House to be whittled away and asked her to consider where this is taking us. Several noble Lords have suggested that this subject should be referred to the Constitution Committee of this House under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Goodlad. There certainly is a place for a significant and substantial debate on the Floor of this House to consider the matter. That is one of the options that I think we should pursue. However, I come back to my first point, that these constitutional issues are very much greater than the specific issue about the CIL regulations. The noble Baroness told the House this afternoon that this measure is presented at the 59th minute of the 23rd hour of this Session. Certainly, noble Lords on this side of the House—myself in particular—have no wish whatever to defeat the Bill, as so much in it is important to the future construction of our infrastructure in this country and such a step would create dismay outside the House. Therefore, what do we do? I have listened to the concerns. We have established that these wider constitutional concerns are felt in all parts of the House and, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, this issue cannot be allowed to rest. This is unfinished business and we have to return to it in the next Session of Parliament. I leave it to wiser heads than mine to decide how that might best be done. In the mean time, do we invite another rejection by another place on the ground of financial privilege, simply in order to make a point? I do not think so. If we can have the kind of discussions that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and the noble Baroness on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench are having, we will all recognise that we have to pursue this issue on another occasion, free from the specific problems of this Bill. In those circumstances, it would not be right for me to ask the House to express a view in the Division Lobbies. We should recognise that we are where we are—the last two days of a Session of Parliament. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. On Question, Motion B agreed to.