Climate Change Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am not a scientist, and it is not my role to debate the intricacies of scientific arguments, but I can and do pray in aid the reviews, the committees and the expert groups that have looked into these matters and which have informed the Government’s decision: it is on their conclusions that the 80 per cent target is now based. I listened with great interest to the strictures of the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, about the Government taking a lead that he said other countries would not follow. I accept that the challenge we have set ourselves is massive, but I would not underestimate the potential of this country to influence international debate and considerations. I am not pessimistic about the current negotiations, despite the way that he has described them; I am confident that we will move from the EU into discussions towards Copenhagen. This country’s lead will have a powerful impact on our ability to come to international agreement. The noble Lord raised issues about—shall we say?—the credibility of projects such as CDM projects. I understand the point he makes, but it is right that this country is a strong supporter of CDM initiatives. We look to international processes to ensure the integrity of those systems. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has welcomed the amendment made in the other place setting the 80 per cent target, but says that there are ways it can be dodged around. I hope he will have confidence that it is not the Government’s intention to reach a conclusion on the level of the target and then legislate to find ways around it. On the question of whether the Prime Minister should be in the Bill, I do not want to repeat my arguments from earlier but, although they may seem to be technical, they are in fact substantive. This Government and this Prime Minister are committed to what we have set out to achieve. On that basis, I hope the House will accept this group of amendments. On Question, Whether Amendment No. 1 shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided: Contents, 190; Not-Contents, 16. 7: Page 6, line 32, at end insert- ““(i) the emissions of greenhouse gases from international aviation or international shipping that the Secretary of State expects to arise during the budget period.”” 7B: Page 6, line 32, at end insert- ““(i) the estimated amount of reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping for the budgetary period or periods in question.”” 7C: Page 6, line 32, at end insert- ““( ) In subsection (2)(i) ““the estimated amount of reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping””, in relation to a budgetary period, means the aggregate of the amounts relating to emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and international shipping that the Secretary or State or (as the case may be) the Committee estimates the United Kingdom will be required to report for that period in accordance with international carbon reporting practice. ( ) Such amounts may be estimated using such reasonable method or methods as the Secretary of State or (as the case may be) the Committee considers appropriate. ( ) The duty in subsection (2)(i) applies if and to the extent that regulations under section 30 do not provide for emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and international shipping in the budgetary period or periods in question to be treated as emissions from sources in the United Kingdom for the purposes of this Part. ( ) Section 30(1) (emissions from international aviation and international shipping not to count as emissions from UK sources for the purposes of this Part, except as provided by regulations) does not prevent the Secretary of State or the Committee from taking into account the matter referred to in subsection (2)(i) for the purposes of this section.””